The Hidden Cost of Success: Unmasking High Functioning Depression

Richard Zwicky: Hi everyone, it's Richard Zmi with High on Healthy, the show where we know there's no one path to healthy, so we look at them all. If you haven't subscribed yet, please do so using your favorite podcast listening tool. Today's conversation is going to examine a hidden mental health challenge, which is why do people who appear successful on the surface often struggle silently in unawares to themselves and I'm joined by Hunter Cook, a licensed professional counselor with over a decade of clinical experience and the owner of Dimensions Counseling Center. Welcome aboard the show, Hunter.

Hunter Cook: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Richard Zwicky: So you work with high performing professionals and leaders who, to the public eye would appear accomplished, but internally they're experiencing chronic stress, emotional disconnection, anxiety, often burnout because they keep working and plowing at it rather than taking time for themselves. And what's increasingly becoming recognized as high functioning depression. Many people assume that depress depression looks like withdrawal and burnout looks like you're just not able to function and people shut down. But many people maintain careers, relationships and outward success while suffering. What exactly is high functioning depression and what are they dealing with?

Hunter Cook: High functioning depression is not really a clinical diagnosis. It's something that we can think of more from in the context of just their interpersonal relationships and their life in general. So with high functioning depression, they're experiencing a lot of the things that come with depression. The withdrawal, the irritability, the feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, wanting to kind of withdraw and not do anything but still kind of pushing through. And to all outside observers, they look like they're doing perfectly fine and even being quite successful.

Richard Zwicky: And they look successful. How do they feel on the inside? When do they start to recognize? What happens to make them recognize something's a miss?

Hunter Cook: Unfortunately, with a lot of these folks, it takes a long time for them to end up kind of seeing, there's an issue here. Because they've been taught through really years and years and typically decades of time that they just need to suppress their emotion. That it gets in the way of the goal or you have to push through and achieve in order to earn love or accolades or some sort of thing that meets a need for them.

Richard Zwicky: And that's also consistent with people who have faced emotional abuse where they're taught that love or any form of affection or emotional connection is contingent. It's conditional based on them performing and that they're never quite good enough. So, they have to keep stressing harder. Are the root causes the same or are they different?

Hunter Cook: That's a good question. For some people, it is kind of childhood stuff. It's a trauma, emotional abuse, emotional neglect. Sometimes that comes from a kind of subtle place. Maybe they have a need that doesn't get met and maybe their parents are trying the best they can but still not quite meeting that. Another place that this could come from is I guess I'll label it as societal expectations. And I think this point is something that doesn't get talked about quite often enough is neurode divergence when it comes into play because honestly I found a lot of people that walk into my metaphorical door actually end up experiencing some level of neurode divergence whether it be ADHD or they're on the autism spectrum and the world at least in the US that we've built wasn't not really designed to accommodate for those needs. So, we've pressured people into acting a certain way and that makes it hard for them to really ever meet the standard because that's just not a standard that they can meet and still be healthy.

Richard Zwicky: And those standards are often out of anybody's reach

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Richard Zwicky: Because and you set the final goal and the milestones along the way. You don't take the time to I know from past experience, I have 20ome patents issued. I didn't celebrate any of them. I have another one issuing shortly. I'm going to celebrate it, right? I went through a lot of things where I just was told, "Yeah, that's not yes. So what?" Right? As opposed to, " that actually is meaningful." those patterns and that behavior, it happens in different degrees, but the people who work with these high performing professionals who are suffering, what patterns can they see so that they know, hey, I need to help this person.

Hunter Cook: What is it?

Richard Zwicky: I depend on them to really perform to their peak ability. And if I help them, we all succeed better.

Hunter Cook: And that can be a tough question because we've established a lot of these really high performing people have gotten really good at hiding it. So sometimes it comes down to I won't say a breakdown necessarily

Richard Zwicky: Uhhuh.

Hunter Cook: But them just kind of losing it. Flying off the handle, yelling at the dog for peeing in the floor one final time. Just something small this seems like a pretty big overreaction. Beyond that, looking for just emotional exhaustion. I won't say laziness necessarily but just a lack of motivation to do anything, to get up, go for a walk because what's the point? It doesn't do anything anyway. Just a Sure.

Richard Zwicky: But that's further along. There's stuff that's earlier on as symptoms which as co-workers, as family members can help each other. When you see somebody who's just demotivated, not getting going, that's really obvious. What's it's the steps along the way that we can help people prevent getting to that stage.

Hunter Cook: So, if we're seeing someone that we're seeing that they are off in some way, obviously when we can come to them as family, friends, co-workers, and just check in. Hey, how you doing? You've seemed off. And sometimes that's enough just to open the door because so many of these people have been told just suck it up for so long that having someone come and ask them, hey, are you okay? They may just start talking and that may be all they need there. Beyond that, being supportive, making suggestions. Hey, why don't we go on vacation? Hey, you've been working a lot. Why don't we take a day and go to lunch? And not talk work while we're there. Just talk about family or something fun or enjoyable. Right.

Richard Zwicky: And there's that emotional numbness that comes over time that people experience. How does chronic performance pressure lead to that disconnection, that numbness which then prevents us from people from getting out of that situation, right?

Hunter Cook: So I see this numbness really as a survival technique. This is what they've had to kind of do or their brain has had to do to keep getting them by and functioning as we shall say. Need the question again Sure.

Richard Zwicky: It will take a few seconds. So, a lot of people who are, high performers and are dealing with that chronic pressure to perform, they end up disconnected from their emotions, numb to them. And how do they recognize that and overcome it and understand what to do?

Hunter Cook: So, the numbness I really think is something that comes as survival technique. They've learned that they have to kind of push their emotions down in order to keep meeting the deadlines, and keep satisfying the requirements for whatever role they may be in. Something that they really can be paying attention to is how they're interacting with others. If they notice that they're just not feeling connected with the people at work or their family, the ones that really do care about them and that they've built really strong relationships. If they're feeling disconnected there, I think that's a really good kind of point of information for them. Again talking about the disconnection from things that they used to enjoy. I'm not the same person that I used to go and take photographs all the time.

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Hunter Cook: I used to go hiking. Whatever it may be. Just I am not the person that I used to be. And I don't like the fact that I'm there.

Richard Zwicky: And that's a tough one for people to recognize and from a self-awareness perspective, but it is meaningful and a key step towards healing. One of the other aspects which was going to touch upon is perfectionism because a lot of times that people's attempts to achieve perfection is really both a symptom and a driver of depression because you never get there. How does this compound?

Hunter Cook: So if someone's aiming for perfection, like you said, they can never achieve that necessarily. Again, coping skill that they've learned over time, they've had to be just so in order to feel like they've accomplished what they've needed to accomplish. As far as really how they can deal with that is learning to embrace the process that comes with that instead of the outcome. Enjoy what it looks like and coming back to what you had said celebrating the wins, not just kind of brushing them off as that's just what you're supposed to do kind of idea. Being okay with the flaws because if we're shooting for something that doesn't have flaws, we're never going to accomplish anything. Yes, indeed it does.

Richard Zwicky: I always say it's perfectly imperfect is ideal. Laws are beautiful, And takes a while to learn that about oneself.

Hunter Cook: It takes a lot of effort and a lot of willingness to be vulnerable and feel uncomfortable.

Richard Zwicky: And vulnerability is a tough one for a lot of people because they think it makes them weak whereas really it's strength. As an EMDR therapist, how do unresolved experiences and trauma contribute into this? And how are there markers where you see certain aspects or what types of hyper of depression that you can tie back to certain types of unresolved trauma experiences? Are there buckets?

Hunter Cook: Buckets is a good word for them. So the way I do EMDR is I look at what's called negative core beliefs. You can think of those kind of the memory balls from inside out. I actually think that those are pretty good comparisons that you have your core memories there. So, a negative core belief, whether it be I'm not good enough, I should have done more, I'm unsafe, whatever it may be. There are often early things, whether it's potentially even while someone's still in the womb, but that's, a little different where they've gotten this lesson maybe even subtly. Parents maybe made a comment about their weight a few times and that's snowballed into other things and gotten reinforced through, childhood bullying. And then, it ends up just being a part of their life of, this is obviously true since the people that were supposed to care about me, the family, the friends, all seem to reinforce it, so it's obviously true. And that really sticks with people. Right. And it's often just so subtle like most people wouldn't even think about it in passing. Mhm.

Richard Zwicky: It does. And those things, people underestimate the impact they have when a child hears those words come out of the parents mouth because we frame our children's beliefs about themselves. Yeah. Your parents saying, " don't be lazy." Immediately is heard by you're a lazy person. Stop behaving that way. Not to everybody, but to some. And you don't know the impact. And so many other things parents say not meaning without recognizing the impact have long-term effects.

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Richard Zwicky: Which then goes to, as we have those build up and compound over time, the nervous system adapts to really it's a prolonged form of stress to allow to keep themselves performing despite that belief in the back of their head. What's the psychological cost beyond your performance? How do you unwind it? Right.

Hunter Cook: You have to find ways to find your worth in other ways. And typically when I'm working with these type of folks, I'll point them towards their personal values with acceptance and commitment therapy. That's a really strong kind of place to start with people who, struggle with this okay, yeah, you've been told this or that throughout your life, but what are you actually about? And I've seen so many people once they got some clarity on their personal values, they were able to take pretty decisive action on, cutting out things that weren't consistent with those and reintegrating some things that were important to them. And just the breath of relief that people can have by h I feel truly myself when I do this.

Richard Zwicky: And as in most business leaders go through periods where they deal with imposttor syndrome. Those issues that people are going to figure out I'm not that, these things that they attribute to me because They see themselves through a distorted lens that comes over time.

Hunter Cook: So the idea of not good enough and

Richard Zwicky: They carry that home or many of them do. How does that show up inside intimate relationships and marriages?

Hunter Cook: Obviously permanent permeate everywhere as you just said. This can end up with people really making a lot of assumptions about what their partners are saying. I see couples as well and I see so many people coming in that so much of their issue they're assuming that the other person has these expectations of them that are really unreasonable. When in reality that's not the case. So they feel like I'm a good enough partner. I'm not a good enough parent. Just all those not good enoughs leading them to I'll say cycle in that depression and kind of go further down ro that road and continue isolating further and further from the people they care

Richard Zwicky: And you relating to that you touched on values which is something which often needs to be reset. What value how you value yourself and things around you. But the other part of that is Are there common beliefs you come across that high performers hold on to that prevent them from reaching out for support or recognizing I have a problem? Mhm.

Hunter Cook: I think a lot of people I see just have this idea that this is the way it's supposed to be and they don't really know anything different because they've not really been taught anything different. So realistically they're coming in with these beliefs of this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to just get through it. I'm supposed to suppress myself. I'm not going to culture has taught me that I'm not allowed to have struggles otherwise that means I'm not going to be successful and people are going to not respect me anymore and that's going to impact my ability to be an effective leader and just all the kind of catastrophizing thoughts that come with that. Mhm.

Richard Zwicky: And resetting those beliefs is challenging because over one job. They're learned from some formative years. And your values are the same issue. Although when you're stepping out and saying I need help, you're already recognizing this is a challenge. Something's wrong with my values and beliefs. You may not know to put your finger on that's what it is, but there's a challenge.

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Richard Zwicky: How do you help people recognize that they're not aligned?

Hunter Cook: Really it comes from experience and my personal experience working with these folks and saying hang on you're telling me this one thing is important to you but you're doing this thing that repeatedly is causing you distress. Help me understand what's going on here. And sometimes there's a legitimate reason why they're at odds there, but typically they come back with a I honestly don't know why I'm there. It's just I've gotten there over time and it feels awful.

Richard Zwicky: On that when you continue that point out, somebody who's sitting there and listening to the show and is a high performer, what are three questions you wish people ask themselves, it doesn't have to be high performance, anybody ask themselves that forces them to assess am I really aligned? Are my values and beliefs consistent with who I am and what I want to be

Hunter Cook: I think number one question would be does this feel like you? And I know that may be a question in and that may be part of it, but does this feel like it is right for you? And that's kind of existential and sort of woo some may say, but I think there's something just that gut feeling of does this feel right to you? And oftenimes it may not. Looking at is this value something that is true to you or is this something that you were told you were supposed to care about? Money for instance or wealth. That's something that a lot of people are told there's a lot of people that don't really care about being wealthy. They're happy to have a roof over their head and they're checking to see is this actually mine or did I accept this from society or parents what have you. And I lastly, just thinking about values does this bring joy to my life? Bring joy may not be the right word. But does this bring a feeling an experience of fulfillment? Does this feel positive to me?

Richard Zwicky: Joy is a loaded term. I always like to have people think about content because it allows for the ups and downs. Doesn't not every moment's going to be joyful, but if we're content overall, we're actually on the right path. Of course, people who would answer these questions then go, something isn't right." They're going to be afraid when they think about stepping forward. Does actually with Will this negatively impact me and cause problems for those around me who I care and love about? Right? Which it doesn't have to. But help? What do you say to somebody who's concerned about that?

Hunter Cook: That's scary because there's reality there. It's not just a I changed this about myself. This stuff could have a real impact on people I care about, my company, whomever. I guess to that I would ask them to be mindful of, okay, if it does impact them, is there a way to let's say that it's within their business, is that role still right for you? Does changing this for you to be healthy mean that where you're at is no longer the right fit for you?

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Hunter Cook: And I think job is easier to kind of make changes as far as this is no longer a right fit than it is for but to interpersonal relationships, family, friends, whatnot. I would say do you want them to like you for you or are we trying to have them a curated version of one where you have to put an incredible amount of effort into I guess fitting in or fitting what you perceive their expectations are. And to that if it's friendships if you're trying to play a role and again if that doesn't fit you any longer then maybe it's time to kind of part ways amicably with the family. I would say that they want to love you for you, and that takes willingness to be vulnerable, but I have yet to meet a person that came back into session and said, "That went horribly, and now they're leaving me." So in all likelihood that fear while legitimate is probably not going to come true. Mhm.

Richard Zwicky: Something you said there just want to dial back on is for many men their job and you say about changing your job but for many men their job and career define them in their heads. They confuse that with who they are as a person. And it's not a healthy thing because if you lose your job, feel like Your being was taken away. For high performers, it's even more acute because it's not just how you identify yourself, also your value is tied to that performance. How do you helping people recognize that they are not their career, even if they've created this company? I've built a number of companies. They're all your baby, but they're all imperfect, but when they move on, people have a hard time letting go. H how do you help people do that? Because you have to do that to be able to break the connection between your performance and yourself, but also to and come out of that depression. Right.

Hunter Cook: To be a little silly, I'll help them understand they need to get a life. There are so many people that really have built their life around kind of their job, their roles and they've I'll say forsaken their personal life outside of that. They have lost hobbies. They don't have the relationships. They don't know what their interests are. I've had countless people say, "I don't even know what I like." So, people are not alone in the I don't know who I am outside of this. And, there's truth to that. They don't know who they are. But with that, I actually like to frame it as kind of an ironically liberating thing because then they can just try stuff and If they don't, okay, they try something else. There's no obligation to keep doing something that they don't like. And that frees them up to explore the world, go travel, go skydiving whatever it may be. And that opens them up to so many cool experiences they can have in their life.

Richard Zwicky: It's very true and it's part of taking control of oneself on so many levels is actually going out and having fun, And fun is healthy which sometimes people feel there, is a challenge. Hunter, for listeners who want to learn more about you and Dimensions Counseling Center, How can they reach out?

Hunter Cook: So, they can obviously visit my website dimensionscounselingcenter.com. I'm also on Counseling Center on all of those. They feel free to reach out and messages on there and happy to chat with folks.

Richard Zwicky: Wonderful. Thanks for joining us today on High and

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Hunter Cook: Been a pleasure.

Richard Zwicky: Thanks to everybody for listening. As we say, there's no single path to healthy. We're exploring them all. Thanks for joining us. We'll be back again with you soon.