The Second Brain: How Your Gut Controls Your Sleep, Memory, and Decision-Making

Richard Zwicky: Hi everyone, it's Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy, the show where we know there's no one path to healthy, so we look at them all. If you haven't subscribed yet, please do so using your favorite podcast listening tool. Joining me today, I have Dr. Todd Coleman, who's an associate professor of bioengineering at Stanford University and who is studying some amazing connections between our guts or stomachs and our brains. Welcome aboard the show, Todd. So,

Todd Coleman: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Richard Zwicky: To people often say that they have a gut feeling and that's not scientific, but from a neuroscience perspective, how literal is that idea? Because I get hangry. And in a way, that's a gut feeling. My gut is influencing my brain, my mood, and everything else. Is there something about the gut that's actually influencing cognition and decision-making?

Todd Coleman: That's an excellent point. So without question the answer is yes and in fact give you sort of two examples of this if we really think from an evolution perspective. So maybe the first analogy I'll give is the following. In China, they call your digestive system, they call it your second brain. And part of the reason they do that is because you may or may not appreciate this, but we have a nervous system not only in our brain, but throughout different parts of our body. And if you focus on our digestive system, the human digestive system has a nervous system all throughout the lining of the GI tract. So, if you think about your GI tract, it's basically like a big tube that's just warped around, But if you were to unravel, your intestines and everything, it's just a big long tube. And within the inner lining and the outer lining of the tube in the human digestive system, there's about 300 million neurons that coordinate all types of activities, right? They talk to the immune system. They talk to the muscles to coordinate when contractions occur. They talk to nerves that connect to our first brain via the spinal cord, via the vagus nerve, etc. So there's a lot of functions that are occurring some of them solely in the digestive system and some of them sending signals back up to the brain. So that's one fun fact about the notion of a gut feeling. There's literally a nervous system in our gut. And so I gave you the analogy of the second brain. If you think from an evolution perspective, you could argue this is your first brain. And what I mean by that is that most organisms what is the real purpose for them to do? It's to avoid predators. It's to reproduce and it's to eat, All To consume food. And so if you think about that latter one that I alluded to and if you take a look at the digestive system, the sense the sensing of the external environment and the movement in the motor environment, they are all interconnected. And so much smaller organisms like little crabs and things like that, there is much less of a separation of the central and the peripheral nervous system. They in some sense are all interconnected. And so evolutionarily one can argue that our first brain is actually the brain that governs sensing, movement and digestion all in one. Yeah, exactly.

Richard Zwicky: Our drive our drive to feed is right, it's one of our basic and primal instincts. We don't think of that as a brain because we think of our brain as a activity where we're consciously thinking. But our body exists and operates without us thinking actively, It just occurs. It's part of our subconscious. It is actively thinking, but it's not part that we're conscious of. Why is the connection actually not better and intuitively understood considering it's happening 24/7?

Todd Coleman: There's a great example of this. So a lot of this really boils down to philosophy of science and the history of a lot of these fields. I was just in a meeting before talking to you when we were asking ourselves why are certain areas of neuroscience so much more oversaturated as compared to others. And a lot of this is just the history and the history of science, the history of medicine, etc. And so we're starting to see some changes that are occurring because increasingly some of the most interesting problems clinically as well as in basic neuroscience really involve the interconnection of these systems and not just looking at them in isolation. And one of the hottest topics sort of building upon what you're talking about here Richard is the notion of perception of the internal state of the body or interosception. And a lot of these activities that occur, you mentioned sort of consciously taking certain actions versus other activities that are much more in the subconscious or reflexive actions, but that dichotomy is not as separate as we may think. Certain types of reflexive activities still are sending signals that modulate cognition and vice versa. So, a great example of this is you may or may not know this, but sometimes you can control when you sneeze. One of my colleagues here at Stanford was telling me about this.

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Todd Coleman: And so, sneezing we traditionally think of as a reflexive mechanism, but you can actually control this sort of if you're careful. So, this blend between these is starting to become very important. And I mentioned interception before and that is if we think about sight, think about movement, think about the sense of hearing, the sense of smell, those are sort of external senses that we bring to ourselves. And in terception is the sense of the internal state of self. Things like hunger, things like satiety, sensing when your heart is beating, sensing when you're inhaling and exhaling. So this notion of interosception is increasingly being shown to be important for almost every type of brain process that we can think of including many conscious ones that affect our decision making or cognition, affect many psychiatric functions. And so it's a really exciting time to start to explore other parts of the nervous system outside of the brain and their interconnection with the brain.

Richard Zwicky: And you're studying how the stomach influences the brain and aging, correct?

Todd Coleman: That's one of many things that we're doing. And so one example of that we are working on is we have a preprint that can be found online that involves us studying sleep. So, we know that sleep is a window into a lot of interesting things. And so, as an example, there are ways that we can quote unquote characterize the real age of your brain, which is separate from your physical age from the day you were actually born. And one of the many ways that they can do that is by characterizing the properties that occur in sleep. So, how much slowwave sleep you get, the occurrence of spindles, a lot of these details. And it's been shown that this type of work can connect and predict a lot of downstream other things associated with what we typically think about in aging. So some work that we did in collaboration with some people in Europe is that we were able to use the same type of sensors that my research group has been using for over a decade where we place electrodes over the abdomen to record the electrical activity of the stomach. That in itself you might just take a moment to pause and reflect upon. But it turns out just like EEG measure electrical activity of the brain, EKG can measure electrical activity of the stomach, it turns out that there's a signal that can measure electrical activity which excuse let me rephrase that. EKG can measure electrical activity of the heart. And it turns out that there's also an electrical rhythm that coordinates contractions of the stomach. And that's called the almost like egg the electro gastrogram. And so that signal is present all throughout the day. But it has a wave that it generates and that wave has important processes to characterize digestion. But also the amplitude of that oscillation is modulated by many things. And it turns out what we discovered is that there's really interesting information in both the phase of the oscillation, when it's at its peak versus trough as well as the amplitude of that oscillation and its connection to the brain. In particular, what we were able to establish is that in non-REM sleep, the electrical activity of the stomach is greater as compared to sleep. And then non-REM sleep is what we typically think about as deep sleep whereas sleep is typically the sleep we think about with dreams. So, if we focus on deep sleep, there's been a lot of work that's linked that to aging as you alluded to, Richard. And the types of events that occur are things like spindles that get generated in a stud substage of deep sleep called N2. And then there are other things that occur like the slowwave activity that's important for memory consolidation and for sort of clearing out some of the toxins in our brain. And that is primarily what's called stage N3. And basically what we show in this new finding is that the exact timing of the oscillation of the stomach is linked to some of these events like spindles the slow waves and when spindles are coupled to slow waves and

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Todd Coleman: Also the amplitude fluctuations are closely aligned with some of the electrical activity in the brain that governs spindle activity. So there's this really interesting dialogue that we find between the brain and the stomach and what's partic of particular interest within the context of thinking about aging etc is that we also demonstrate functional consequences of this coupling and one of the things that basically we show is that so remember if we focus on non-REM sleep for a minute that can be split in two and in stage N2, what we find is that basically if the stomach is coupled well to the brain during stage N2 when these events occur, that's actually better for your memory consolidation. Whereas if the stomach is coupled to the brain during stage N3 of sleep which is when the brain is supposed to be more cut off from the external and internal environment and focused on memory consolidation. In that stage of sleep. If the stomach is coupled, it actually worsens your next day memory consolidation. And then we have similar findings for something involving subjective sleep quality. And this is crucially important because you'd be surprised that even if I were to instrument you with a big shower cap of EEG on your head and I was able to take a look in every 30 second window what stage of sleep you were in I can generate all sorts of statistics about spindles about sleep staging that stuff does not correlate well with how you subjectively feel in the morning about your sleep. So subjective sleep quality does not correlate well with brain measures. And basically what we show is that we can substantially improve the ability to predict subjective sleep quality by also taking into consideration gastric and gastric brain coupling measures. So we think there might be something about the brain and how it's surveilling the body during sleep that is more predictive of your sleep quality.

Richard Zwicky: Which brings me to as I was listening to you and I'm thinking about the aspects you're saying, some people speak about, not to eat just before bed. Some people say not to eat certain things or do eat certain things. And the bacteria that's in our stomachs influences our neurotransmitters and our dopamine and serotonin levels and so on. Have you noticed a relationship?

Todd Coleman: That's an excellent question. So for this collaboration that we did with folks in Europe, the data was collected in Europe and one of the things that we did track is we tracked the time of the last meal that they ate and so we did control for that in a lot of our statistical analyses and we found the relationships were still there but we do think there is an effect. And so for instance when you eat a meal the amplitude of the oscillations in your stomach that correspond to the timing of contractions the amplitude increases and that's because when these oscillations cross a threshold when that threshold is crossed then the actual contractions occur to propel food throughout the GI tract and so when the stomach senses you have food there it then increases the amplitude of those oscillations. So, one of the things that we do see is we see that the beginning of sleep the oscillations are larger in magnitude and then they attenuate but they're always present and we think that attenuation is due to some people having eaten a meal not too long before they go to bed. We did a number of so we did not track that

Richard Zwicky: And does it matter what you eat? Did you look at that?

Todd Coleman: But this is future work that I want to study because I personally have noticed that the vividness of my dreams and the topics of my dreams definitely vary with what I ate and in particular if I eat very spicy food as my dinner meal then I have these very vivid wild dreams and so I think there's a lot of interesting sort topics there about content which we did not explore here. We did correct for it at least the timing of meals and the effects are still there. But what is super interesting is the content of the food and the effect it could have on your dreams. At least me and my own experiences. So a fun fact about my European collaborators they have a big interest in actually looking at dreams themselves. And so one interesting thing that did occur is that all of the patients wrote down sort of summaries about what they dreamed about and whatnot. So there's probably going to be of this data set that was collected there going to be many findings and publications that come of this and some of them are going to touch upon this dream topic and I think the connection between dream and the timing of your dinner or

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Todd Coleman: The timing of the last meal you ate and the contents and the link with dreams is super fascinating just from my own personal experiences. I can say that.

Richard Zwicky: It would be fascinating to see because also as from our conversations, I went through battle long COVID and I take tryptophan supplements so that the serot is able to manufacture serotonin melatonin which I can no longer extract from my food properly. And for many people that's a rude issue that when they're dealing with depression. It'd be fascinating to see if the foods we eat how the disruptions to the gut health in terms of what you eat trigger increases in anxiety or depression from the time of day of the meal. It's not just whether you get the contents, it's when you get them.

Todd Coleman: So, I think you're definitely on to something right here. And so, I just want to say that one of the things I love to do, there's a phrase that I use called feeling comfortable, feeling uncomfortable. And this began because in my career trajectory, I was trained originally as a PhD in electrical engineering. And then my PhD adviser gave me the best advice in my career to go do a post-doal study in something wildly different. So I did neuroscience even though I knew nothing about it. And then in 2011 I ended up pivoting starting to study the digestive system. Again I knew nothing about it. So in the spirit of Yeah.

Richard Zwicky: That's where we all start, isn't it? We all start knowing nothing. Mhm.

Todd Coleman: It's great. Yeah exactly we all start knowing nothing. So, in the spirit of feeling comfortable, feeling uncomfortable, I've tried to dive into this. And so, there's a topic of nutritional psychiatry, which is building upon what you're talking about is really thinking about food as medicine for psychiatric conditions. And so, I actually organized a workshop here at Stanford. This is probably January of 2024. I tried to get some people who are boardcertified nutritionists who work in some of these acute settings with people with acute psychiatric conditions and they can identify some of their symptoms, look at a history and identify very specific meals and they have amazing cases of how they can take extreme cases of psychiatric conditions that could go left really fast and really get them to a much calmer, better state. And this is increasingly being recognized. The economist actually had a technology quarterly article not long ago about nutritional psychiatry. So I am trying to learn as much as I can. I'm trying to spend time with the nutritionist interacting with psychiatrists as well. Another fun fact I want to give you about because you said two things that are important. You said the timing of what you eat and specifically what you eat and it's linked to psychiatric conditions. We do know that the timing of meals is important and there are some people that have done studies showcasing that if you eat your dinner closer to 6 or 7 o'clock as compared to 8 or 9:00 and then you fast in the morning the long-term metabolic consequences of that can be great. We also know that fasting is an anti-inflammatory mechanism and so for instance there's a huge recent paper in nature medicine taking a look at patients who have inflammatory bowel disease which is excess inflammation of the gut and what they show is that putting them on a certain type of fasting diet has remarkable effects on reducing these episodes called flares that they experience. So that's from a gastronenterology perspective. But I want to go back to what you said about long COVID because we know that inflammation from things such as COVID from the digestive system can turn into neuroinflammation and affect psychiatric manifestations affect brain function and so again the timing of meals and the connection with fasting and its anti-inflammatory effects could be useful in certain types of neuroinflammatory manifestations of psychiatry. But additionally specifically what you eat is important and I remember you mentioned serotonin the story there and tryptophan. From hanging out with these nutritionists, I find it absolutely fascinating that they can tell these stories about how they saw this patient and they saw some of the symptoms and some of their behaviors and they realized they needed a meal that had these key components in there because some of them really understand the chemistry and the metabolism and how this affects peptides and other things occurring in your brain. So I think we're very much at the beginning stages of this and I think potentially with AI and with many things and a knowledge of this chemistry we might be in a position where my vision is to envision taking someone's individual symptoms, their behaviors. Maybe we take a snapshot of their microbiome if we can easily and from all of that information get a sense of perhaps

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Todd Coleman: What a good nutritional regimen of what they eat and when could be to maximize their personal experience that is a long-term vision but the science is beginning to point and some dots are beginning to be connected. So I hope I addressed some of your questions.

Richard Zwicky: And when you step back and look at it and consider how connected the stomach and the brain is and you're looking at it from the perspective of, how the stomach and is affecting the brain and in many ways. The other aspect I was thinking about is people who have suffered abuse or trauma, especially as children, they have wounds, they're effectively wounds on the brain that are scars that are unhealed because you can't see them like a broken bone and you don't know what to treat or even that it's there until much later. That trauma gets reflected in behavior. But I read a study a few months ago about IBS and other digestive conditions being connected to the traumas. When you're doing your measurements, are you able to see that some of the signals could reflect that as well?

Todd Coleman: I love that question. So, you're completely spot on, Richard. And in fact, I want to give a shout out. So, as you can imagine, none of the work that I do is in isolation. I have amazing colleagues around me. And so one of my colleagues, a gentleman by the name of Danny Lamoth. He's originally from Canada. And by the way, he's from Montreal. He is a board-certified psychiatrist here at Stanford. He is unique in that he has a subsp specialty that you have to be certified for, which is called consultant leazison in psychiatry. And these people basically get trained with the same level of knowledge about the nervous system as a neurologist. So they know all the detailed neural mechanisms and they handle very complex cases that might involve neurology or ICU where there's a psychiatric component and they can rapidly see what's occurring, see very complex mechanisms and see how from a psychiatric persp perspective they can help them. So he spends some of his time in the hospital handling these very complex cases. But what's super fascinating about him is that he also spends 30% of his clinical time in the GI clinic. And he's the only psychiatrist in the GI clinic. And it's interesting, Richard, you specifically said IBS because he said a lot of the patients that he sees in that clinic have IBS and they have very serious symptoms. And when a gastronenterologist from their siloed perspective of gastronurology, they do all their assessments, they see these horrible symptoms, but they don't see anything wrong from a traditional gastronenterology perspective. And Danny has told me remarkable stories about he can go in and do some unique therapies that he has that he was trained in Montreal. One of them, I believe, is called psychonamic therapy. And in essence what he trains the patients to do is what he notices a lot of these patients who many of them had trauma. So I just want to link the things that you said Many of them have had childhood trauma. They had this manifestation of these wounds not only in their brain but also in their body such as their digestive system. And what he finds with a lot of them when he goes he does these therapy sessions with them is that they talk about my mom abandoned me when I was a child. She didn't give me the attention that I needed. I'm so frustrated about that. I can feel my heart racing. I'm breathing faster, etc. And Danny begins to tell them, "Do you realize that, these effects of your emotions are manifesting themselves in your body, such as your breathing, such as your heart, and also this is probably contributing to your IBS." But for a long time, these patients are mentally unwilling to make the connection that your emotions are also manifested in your body. And through his therapeutic procedures with them, he begins to convince them that part of these emotions are manifest in the body. And he basically indicates, and I'm taking this somewhat out of context, but he's saying that is the first step to helping to treat them is to get them to understand this linkage between their body and the manifestation of their emotions in their body. And by going through that process, he can help them. And he tells me amazing stories how he can, completely resolve some of these extremely severe cases of IBS or people who are so sensitive to food that their nutritional regimen is very imperfect because they're so sensitive to many types of foods that they eat. And by him helping them with their emotions and understanding how their emotions manifest in their body, he can get them back to a path of having a completely normal full diet and not having the symptoms and leading their normal lives. So the connection between the brain and the body and it's birectional is fascinating and Danny and

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Todd Coleman: His insight has guided us into developing some research studies and so we have an ongoing research study now. It's not published yet, but the preliminary results are very fine, are very promising where we are explicitly developing a controlled study taking a look at emotions and how they manifest themselves in the body. And we specifically separate them into different types of emotions and try to see almost what the bodily signatures are. And so that's ongoing work. And so stay tuned on that.

Richard Zwicky: It's interesting. I was actually just going to go there, which relates to when you're speaking about having somebody apply a sensor on their stomach area or their gut, but

Todd Coleman: On there. Look, and I'll just say it's on the surface of your skin. So, it's basically just on your belly. It's all noninvasive, but sorry. Go ahead. Yes.

Richard Zwicky: No. But you're able to create baselines of the interactions and what's going on and a standard model for the signals. But that's not something that people are going to commonly do at home. But people wear their smartwatches 24/7 and they have other things. Will we be able to correlate data from a smartwatch and be able to use that data to be indicative of something that you will have been able to create a baseline of that then is indicative that you can go and study as an individual the smartwatch will pick up the signals and the signals can then be tied that when the following patterns exist it's likely this is occurring and we should study this or be able to short circuit the normal diagnostic process to go closer to what the person's dealing with. I'm phrasing that very clumsily, but I hope you understand.

Todd Coleman: What you're I think the key point that you're saying is that if we want to get population health information, if we want to measure the same person over a very long period of time, we don't want to put a clumsy sensor, like a shower cap over their head or a patch over their abdomen and have them wear it all the time. But what do people wear all the time? They wear smartwatch just as So, a couple of examples that I'll give is that to actually get brain information All right.

Richard Zwicky: But let me take it a step further. It's actually like behavioral targeting works by mapping what a norm a normal average person behavior is in each circumstance and then creating p effectively personas. You match one of multiple personas and the expectation is your action will follow this persona 90% of the time. And so what I'm wondering is if we can use the sensors to establish baselines for individuals that are being studied, is there a way to map that type of data to what we'd collect through smartwatches or smart devices that people commonly use at home so that people know there is something for me to look at with regards to this. So from when they go to the dock, they're not just generally saying, yeah, I don't feel great. They can actually say, I don't feel great, but here's data that's pointing me in this area.

Todd Coleman: I think the answer is yes. This is what I was about to allude to was that first of all, we're getting more technologies. Readouts from smartwatches which can give us heart rate and heart rate variability types of information which we know reflect certain states of how the brain and the body dialogue. There are also new technologies for instance that are measuring imagine your Apple earbuds or any type of earbud that you wear. They can actually sense EEG with those. So there's companies with products on the market One of them is called NexSense and they actually just won this big Oprah magazine award where Oprah recommended their technology. So we're beginning to see things that could be ubiquitously recorded over longer periods of time. But going back to what you said, being able to build profiles at the individual level and target them, we're beginning to see recent findings and research that suggest the answer is yes. So across multiple domains people have been able to take variabilities in behavior and imagine if I have someone's behavior and I have a very richly sampled data set where I'm collecting information let's say even some of which is in a small number of people I've collected that is not something that could be done at a population level because it's cumbersome but what I can do with that is I can really understand what the relationship ships are between the key, let's say, brain processes that I care about, how we link those to behavior and also link those to more peripheral, easy to establish measures such as a smartwatch.

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Todd Coleman: If I have that trio of those types of information, can I then now allow someone to go off in the real world where maybe the only thing that I'm getting is some of the behavioral information periodically and you in a continuous stream let's say of a peripheral measure like a smartwatch. What I can do is I can almost fill in what those other values are at certain time points and I can then get an understanding of how things are occurring. And just in the last couple of years, I've seen some amazing works and people doing this with these modern advances in AI. So I think that the opportunity is ripe for that to occur and this has the potential to revolutionize many areas of medicine and we're seeing work that you're doing for instance and others trying to target certain aspects of psychiatry as well as many other scenarios with these tools. And so I think the devil is in the details and how people do it cleverly. But just from what I'm seeing and the patterns and not only just the richness of the data but how connected they are this is strongly suggestive that with appropriate neuroscienceguided AI tools there will be ways to do this very effectively.

Richard Zwicky: There will be and you know that we are running out of time but I want to just touch on for one last point is your stud is fascinating and it's something which affects everybody walking around every day and people don't recognize let's say their depression could be actually driven by something that's out of sorts for one but layman's terms with their processing of their food or anything else. But the technology that you require to complete the study and the resources you comply require to complete the study realistically extend far beyond the scope of standard tools and equipment in universities. It goes above and beyond. What impediments exist and not just how do these sorts of research projects get funded but what do you need to make it successful because it'll tie across all areas of medicine

Todd Coleman: That's a great question. So, a fun fact, you talked a little bit about the microbiome. So, one great thing about that sleep study we did with folks in Europe is that we actually have stool microbiome from all of those. And so we're in the process of analyzing the microbiome there to see if there's a connection with the microbiome which could then possibly link this back to what you were saying to food diet etc. But in terms of how can I take what I'm doing outside the lab and scale it. One of the things that I'm very proud of is one of my graduate students has been focused on taking the stomach readout that we get that we've been doing in the lab and making this something that can be done in an amulatory fashion. Imagine almost just like a band-aid you place on your abdomen and you can go about your daily life and wear it for 24 hours similar to what's been done with cardiac monitoring. For those of us that have gray hair, we remember the halter monitors when you left the cardiologist and they were big clunky pieces of equipment you were supposed to wear when you left the cardiologist to see how your heart is doing. But now there's a company that builds something called a zeo patch and it's just a patch you wear on your chest, you can take a shower with it etc. It can capture all this data about the heart and it's really transforming cardiology. We have a vision of doing something similar and for the stomach patch and my graduate student has invented a nice patch easy to apply it's compatible with large scale manufacturing she won a pitch competition just back in November for a neural engineering research conference we have a conference publication on it and we're transforming into a journal publication but this is an example of something that we might try to get to the larger community so that more people could study themselves and more people could perhaps imagine one day you could just buy this a consumer product. That is one potential avenue that's going. We're in the research stage. We obviously always need more funding to support this and to expand it. But my other student who did the sleep work just gave a talk at a big conference in Texas where some of the top sleep researchers in the world got together and so many people were excited about trying to use this tool in their sleep science. And so we're actively working on trying to make this available to the broader scientific community and ultimately to everyone so that we can understand these links and given that portable EEG is also becoming more and more ubiquitous as I mentioned we can get EEG from your ears. So imagine you just wear some earbuds and we get this. We're envisioning one day where you could have a pair of earbuds and a patch on your abdomen and they can wirelessly communicate to each other.

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Todd Coleman: We can gather this information and we can see how your stomach and brain talk to each other across different contexts. Separately from all this, we know the microbiome is ticking off like crazy and people are developing more and more ways to ubiquitously sample the microbiome. So I think it's going to be a really unique opportunity where it's going to become easier and easier to get this information and then we can think about very interesting ways to close the loop and identify ways that we can adapt our dietary regimen a variety of things to optimize our psychiatric and other experiences. I hope that did a good job of answering your question.

Richard Zwicky: And I think it's very leading edge but opens up so many opportunities for new areas of research or developing further research because you answer so many questions. It can become a keystone for so many things with the intellectual property you're creating.

Todd Coleman: I agree. That's why one of the things we want to do is we want to get this out to the masses because we think that we ourselves individually are not going to be able to solve all these scientific questions. So the more we can make this widely available to the whole community, the more we can see all the really fascinating questions that people can start to address at a population level. So that's our vision. That's why we're really pushing in that direction.

Richard Zwicky: And a really strong venture capitalist might see that and realize that's the next generation of device.

Todd Coleman: Who knows?

Richard Zwicky: Todd, thanks so much for joining us today on High on Healthy. For people who want to learn more about your work, what site can they visit?

Todd Coleman: Feel free to if you just type my name into Google Todd Coleman Stanford University we have a website that pops up. You can learn more about our work. I guess that would perhaps be the starting point.

Richard Zwicky: Fantastic. Thanks so much for joining us today and

Todd Coleman: Thank you.

Richard Zwicky: Thanks to everybody for listening. I'm Richard Wiki with High on Healthy and we'll be back again with you soon.

Todd Coleman: Take care. Bye-bye.