Overcoming Imposter Syndrome, Conditional Worth, and Burnout

Richard Zwicky: Hi everyone, it's Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy, the show where we know there's no one path to healthy, so we look at them all. If you haven't subscribed yet, please do so on Apple Podcast, Spotify, your favorite podcast listening tool. Today, we're going to look at a paradox why some of the most successful people on Earth are often the ones who struggle the most with their own success, but also do they deserve that success? And I'm joined by Jenna Budro Roman,

Jenna Budreau-Roman: It's a mouthful for sure.

Richard Zwicky: Who's alliance licensed clinical psycholog my god, I'm going to start that part again. I told you I stumble all the time. No, I know what it is. I need a bit of coffee. The nectar of the gods. Hi everyone, it's Richard Wiki with High on Healthy, the show where we know there's no one path to healthy, so we look at them all. Today we're looking at a paradox. Why do some of the world's most successful people struggle with self-worth and essentially what's called imposttor syndrome where they don't believe they deserve what they achieve. And I'm joined for the discussion by Dr. Jenna Budro Roman who's a licensed clinical psychologist and founder of Love and Theory. Jenna works with high performing professionals and

Jenna Budreau-Roman: Hi, thank you for having me on. Mhm.

Richard Zwicky: Couples navigate burnout, anxiety, depression, and trauma, helping those who struggle with their identity understand their true value so they can build healthier relationships. Welcome aboard the show, Jenna. So, imposttor syndrome is something that comes up all the time when I lecture at universities and I just do them, these lectures at different schools when I get invited. But it's amazing how often the question comes up and sometimes it's specifically named and sometimes people ask questions around it because they don't quite know how to phrase it. But you become successful in business. You achieve a lot of things and you wonder There's so much more I don't know than I actually do know. And people assume I know these things and it starts gnawing at you and make you feel like, Am I impostor? What are all these people looking at me for? Why is this common with high performers?

Jenna Budreau-Roman: That's a great question. So when you think about how somebody's became a high performer right is that usually when they're growing up there's this idea that their identity becomes synonymous with achievement with being the best they are rewarded for being the smartest in the class the top speller the spelling be like these types of things and the adults are reinforcing their peers reinforcing it. They become known, for being like a mathlete or being the very best on the football team. Their identity becomes synonymous with this. But unfortunately what happens is that their worth becomes conditional on performance. And so it's like if I'm not performing, if I'm not the best, then who am I? And unfortunately that success, that achievement isn't internalized, to be as I am. I'm enough so long as dot. And so when you don't have that strong sense of identity and then you grow up so to speak. I feel like none of us really grow up. But when we Yeah.

Richard Zwicky: I hope none of us do because when we get old that's a bad thing. Mentally we should stay young.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: I mean, I'm still 19. Totally.

Richard Zwicky: There you go. Absolutely. I'm not going to argue.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: My Spoiler. I'm 39. But yeah, so as we get older, if we don't have that strong sense of identity of our own self-worth, then when we find ourselves in new situations like grad school med school, corporate America, becoming a parent that we don't really know who we are so long as we're not getting that constant validation of meeting metrics whether it's our GPA, how many friends we have, our salary, that our kid says, "I love you enough," that type of thing that we feel inauthentic to ourselves. So, I would say yes and no.

Richard Zwicky: Then there's also the ones who go through abuse in their youth where they're told, they're lazy, they're that, and they don't overperform in certain areas. They're always capable of doing it when challenged, but they just don't do it in general. But then they start succeeding in doing things at business and they have that secondary doubt. Are they different?

00:05:00

Jenna Budreau-Roman: Because in a way that first example that I gave where you might have meaning parents that are reinforcing the achievement that there is not a sense of unconditional love and that unconditional love is obviously missing in instances of overt abuse growing up and so in a way it's like okay I'm not getting what I need at home but I can get it through how I feel when I perform, when I'm doing well, that is how I can make people love me in a way that I've never felt loved before. So, when you grow up thinking love is conditional, then you don't get that solid sense of self-worth of feeling I'm lovable just as I am. That and especially in instances of abuse, you grow up thinking that you're flawed. And so how amazing does it feel to perform and get that positive feedback, whether it's validation, first place, a high salary, a promotion, like that's intoxicating, and reinforcing to the point where if we're not careful, that can lead to bigger problems such as, burnout, depression. And obviously if you have abuse, not obviously, in some cases when you have a history of abuse, that can lead to PTSD or complex PTSD. Yes.

Richard Zwicky: And in both cases the reinforcement cycle becomes emotionally addictive. And with the ones who are abused, it's actually a dual prong. Both the success becomes addictive but also the negative feelings or the conditionality of the support becomes a question. How does healthy ambition begin to turn something that feels more like survival and how do you start to overcome that?

Jenna Budreau-Roman: It's a great question. So, being able to recognize what is driving Is it passion? Is it intention or Is it fear of not being enough? And so when I tell my clients, when you are kind of at a precipice where you can't decide, should I do this or should I not because the body might be begging for rest, but the brain is telling you if you don't then this horrible thing is going to happen. And so asking yourself that question of what's driving me right now? Is it, the intention of looking out for my future making life easier on myself, like self-compassion? Is that what's driving me? Or Is it, if I don't then I'm lazy? Fear. And then if the latter is true, then usually it's trauma or something that's not healthy. That's dictating your decisions. Mhm.

Richard Zwicky: And that fear and trauma expresses itself in many different ways. And one of the signals I learned is a lot of performers in these situations don't celebrate successes because they don' they still feel It's not noteworthy enough. How do you help people overcome that? Because not just recognizing it, but it's actually changing the behavior to become mindful about celebrating those moments.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: It happens all the time where I'll be in session with a client and, they just tell me about the thing that they were talking about last session that they were so anxious about and so worried about a presentation. Are they going to get the promotion? Is this person going to say yes to an engagement proposal? And they're like, " yeah, the thing happened." and it's like, "What? Whoa, hold on. Can we sit and acknowledge what just happened?" it feel in your body when you think back to that moment where your boss said, "Yeah, This is your new title." that promotion you've been working so hard for or whatever that positive moment is. Let's go back to that moment. Sit with it in your body. How does it feel? And the next time that something like this happens and the temptation is to go, okay, what I need to do next is no, no. Let's can we pause, sit in that and tell your friends and your family, the people that care about your achievement. We're so concerned about not wanting to seem like we're boasting and especially if you grew up in an environment where you were told you're too much. Being able to share achievements, accomplishments feels like, you're boasting and that's a bad thing. But really, the people that love and care about us want to share in our successes just as much as they want to support us. And so telling other people and allowing yourself to be celebrated and feel good is huge before going, "Okay, let me get back to the drawing board and my timeline and what's going to be next.

00:10:00

Richard Zwicky: And not celebrating those wins is a big sign. It's an awaren on oneself until it's pointed out but others around us can see it and then try and help us when we're in that people who are in that position. The other side of it is of course a lot of high performance because of the pressure they put on themselves. They're the last to notice they're actually depressed and yet they have everything going on that people would say and why does it happen that they're the last to notice and how can we help them?

Jenna Budreau-Roman: Because in their minds it's not that bad. I'm still hitting deadlines. Im I'm still keeping up with the laundry. But yet, I feel like I'm doing it with 50 lb weights on my legs. But I must be tired. Other people have it worse. I'm not laying in bed for days on end. I'm not showering. I'm still going to my workout class. I'm still going through my routine. So, I must not be depressed. I'm fine, but yet they're not sleeping. They're irritable. They feel burnt out. They can't focus. They have to reread an email 10 times. They're not effective. People around them are like, "You're not yourself."

Richard Zwicky: And yet most anxiety comes from depression, right?

Jenna Budreau-Roman: But usually people around them don't even notice either. You have to really know somebody pretty well to be able to notice it in a high performer that they're depressed. So yeah, usually they are the last to notice and to admit that they're depressed. The other piece of this too is that there's almost at least what I've noticed in my practice, people are so willing to say, "I'm anxious about something," but they really struggle with admitting when they're depressed. Depression feels heavier.

Richard Zwicky: So if you're going after anxiety you're missing the root issue.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: And I always think depression and anxiety are besties. It's really rare to see them. They hang out all the time. To see them without the other, because when you think about it, when you're chronically anxious, eventually you're going to feel depressed from that burnout.

Richard Zwicky: And that actually brings me to a point which is when you push through the pain and

Jenna Budreau-Roman: You miss out on your own life,

Richard Zwicky: You keep doing that it becomes a liability. It builds, you can drive yourself into a depression. You can drive yourself into developing what else are the liabilities that pop up later in life because you followed that path and never took the time but never even valued yourself.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: Because if you're just on autopilot all the time and you're going to miss some really amazing moments of your life of not being able to be present and looking back on that and going, "God, where did the time go? I paid all this money to go on this amazing vacation and I remember it through pictures," And so, we certainly allow ourselves to feel the negative, but we don't necessarily allow ourselves to feel the positive because that feels dangerous, that feels too vulnerable. And so when we're trained to just push through pain, we're also pushing through joy because we're not feeling that either. So that I think is the biggest I mean as a way of selling point for most people to kind of get them to take their mental health seriously is like you're missing out,

Richard Zwicky: And you're also not recognizing that you're content which is a baseline we should all try and get to right? And often gets overlooked. And that brings up, you mentioned about you go on holidays and you remember through pictures and you do burnout happens and burnout you don't resolve with a twoe holiday. You need some time to rest and reset and it isn't sitting around doing nothing. It's just changing the dynamic in the world around you. Why does, but burnout in high performers looks different than what most other people would expect. And often high performers are still doing their jobs and getting through it, but they're burned out. Yeah.

00:15:00

Jenna Budreau-Roman: Because burnout doesn't look like a crash out usually for a high achiever, right? It doesn't look typically like some type of noticeable midlife crisis or an addiction or, anything that we would associate with a mental breakdown because they don't break down, they keep pushing and they optimize, they're are amazing at adapting. But then again they're silently becoming more and more disconnected, from people that love them, their job. They become disenchanted with their job. But instead of thinking what's wrong with my situation it's what's wrong with me? I just need to optimize. I just need to be more efficient. Yeah.

Richard Zwicky: And that actually is a belief that people who are in this position as part of the imposter syndrome as well is they believe they should just be able to handle it. They don't believe they should need to ask for help and usually don't know how to And that's a horrible position to be in

Jenna Budreau-Roman: When you've built your identity on I'm the strong one. I'm the competent one. I'm the one everybody else comes to for help, it feels really strange and unfamiliar and uncomfortable even to be the one that says, "Actually, I need help." So, it's a really big deal when somebody that has that kind of personality takes that step and asks for help. Or they finally take up space in the room and say, "Hey, I'm not okay." people around them were like, "Skirt, wait, what? We thought you were fine. What do you mean?" It's like, this really awful feeling for that person of gosh, does anybody even really know me? And it's like,

Richard Zwicky: And there's the saying it's lonely at the top and

Jenna Budreau-Roman: Usually no, because we've created that emotional distance to not take up space in the relationships. So, yeah. It does look different and it is a really big deal to finally acknowledge like I need some time too, or I need help. Mhm.

Richard Zwicky: Most CEOs and business leaders know that because they are alone and everybody reports to them and so you do create a certain amount of loneliness. Then I look at the other side of the data which is that more than 50% of men and 40ome% of women don't have a close friend they can speak to about what's going on. When you have people who are in leadership positions, they're often the ones who suffer from the imposttor syndrome because unfortunately it's part of what drives people to race to the top to grow themselves into those roles. It's proving yourself and proving yourself and building and building, but you end up more and more isolated and lonely. That dynamic also undercuts your ability to perform later. How can organizations help leaders? Because yes, you need to help yourself, but the people around you need to recognize how can they help their boss, their leader so that everyone can benefit.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: I think that one of the most powerful things is when somebody can get in a room with someone else and hear that person, feels for instance imposter syndrome because it's like this side of relief. Okay, it's not just me, and so perhaps, having a network of minded peers, however organized they want to make it that if somebody feels like they're not alone, they're not the only one that feels this way and that they can talk to other people that get it, that's a big deal and that can be really healing that power of connection. So I mean idealistic and who knows how this would go but at the same time it's like if you're in the seauite then perhaps it should be part of your package or even a requirement to say hey you've got to go once a week or even once a month to leadership seminars where we can talk about vulnerability and authenticity. For instance, Bnee Brown does amazing work for organizations as far as encouraging leaders to show up authentically and with vulnerability to admit I don't know everything and that's okay. Because it also encourages the people that they lead to feel like they can,

00:20:00

Jenna Budreau-Roman: Show up authentically and do their best work and say, "Hey, I'm having a hard time." Or, they're more likely to ask for help when they need it before burnout, and just kind of normalizing excellence rather than perfection.

Richard Zwicky: And that's important is recognizing not every perfection is actually the enemy. And that's something which unfortunately also goes hand in hand. A lot of perfectionism exists in individuals who are trying to be high or are high performers and that is failure is inevitable and that's a hard-hitting moment when it does occur.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: It is invitable. So, it's like if we are constantly chasing perfection, first of all, we're never going to feel content with where we're at ever, but then two, it's like because unfortunately, nobody has a 100% success rate at everything. They just don't. And so when that happens, Exactly. So yeah.

Richard Zwicky: And if you don't fail, you don't really succeed. But we forget how to fail. And so that lack of emotional awareness that comes from forgetting how to fail, it compounds for people who have spent years suppressing their feelings to stay productive. How do you help them?

Jenna Budreau-Roman: So I like to think about it as keeping the situation external if we can. It's just because that you're a mistake as a human being. That there is actually a lot of power that comes with accountability and self-awareness to say I What can I learn from this? That me screwing up isn't synonymous with me screwing up as a human, as you know, that I'm not inherently flawed just because I made a mistake. And be able to distinguish between the two. That's sitting with those feelings of like you failed at something that doesn't feel good. But at the same time being able to sit with that and I'm not going to disintegrate into a million pieces just if I sit with that feeling can then be activating and then when we were talking earlier about hey where are you operating from a place of fear or a place of passion and intention that it's like okay if I can sit with those feelings that are associated with failure and then utilize that into self-compassion and I don't want to be in this position again I want to do better. That's like looking out for yourself and again operating from a place of intention and integrity rather than my gosh I can't screw up again because if I do what does that mean about me and my identity as of the best you Mhm.

Richard Zwicky: And it's a funny thing to have to learn later on that I don't know is probably the most powerful statement we can make and also the most humanizing. It's not a weakness but when you're in those positions, you're taught to expect you should know. Why don't As opposed to being empowered to say, I don't know. Let me Explain it to me. But that is imposter syndrome a sense of competence or is it about identity and selfworth?

Jenna Budreau-Roman: I think it's about identity and selfworth because in reality I mean you have the most competent people in the room objectively speaking degrees accolades journal articles they've written all of that and they might feel like the most incompetent so yeah

Richard Zwicky: It builds those connections

Jenna Budreau-Roman: But I do think that when you have somebody who is able to say I don't know and it's okay that I don't know and I can find out that person becomes so much more relatable and so much more like yes so versus somebody that is just speaking completely I don't know

Richard Zwicky: Which is what's missing.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: How to say it because I don't know if I'm allowed to Okay.

Richard Zwicky: You're allowed to say anything you want.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: But yeah, when somebody's full of hot air, people can usually tell. And there's something just distasteful. It's just like, we can tell can you just say that you don't know? And that's fine. But if somebody has their self-worth so closely tied to their expertise or their title or how other people think of them, that relatability, that sense is just above them.

00:25:00

Jenna Budreau-Roman: If I admit that I don't know something, then that's going to shatter my ego and that's going to be bad and everybody's going to think that I'm a fraud and what have you. And it's like actually what you're doing is kind of promoting that,

Richard Zwicky: You're right.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: By you not just admitting I don't know. So, I kind of went off on a tangent there, but yeah.

Richard Zwicky: No, no, but it's an important one because it makes you less relatable, but it makes you more isolated and it reinforces your imposttor syndrome, Because at a certain point you begin to believe yourself that as opposed to being able to say I don't know. And you also believe I should know everything. And so it creates you're shooting yourself,

Jenna Budreau-Roman: To start shooting yourself.

Richard Zwicky: Because you're also creating an insurmountable wall not just between you and success, but between you and everybody else around you.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: It's true.

Richard Zwicky: So when you become aware of it, it's easy. You see it, you go, "" But it doesn't mean you can break the cycle. What are some practical steps that people can use to break that cycle? And this isn't just your CEO. It's somebody who, you're in any area of your life, you're a high performer in something. And it's recognizing to encourage that self- validation, to embrace the fact that you are good at it, but not critically. You don't have to be critical of yourself for any minor mistake. That cycle of self-evaluation, how do we break it? Because it's that voice in the back of our head that everybody has. Right.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: I would say the biggest tool is building that self-compassion. And people talk about inner child work, and I know sometimes people roll their eyes. It sounds like a little cheesy, but a way that I talk to a lot of my high achievers at Love and Theory is to start to connect with that kid inside of them, the kid that thought they weren't good enough unless they achieved. And imagining that this child inside of you is your own child in a way that's breathing in front of you, struggling with something. Would you encourage that child to push through illness? Would you encourage that child not to sleep? Would you tell that child "Yeah, you're right. Everybody thinks you're a phony." When they're getting straight A's,

Richard Zwicky: But the hard part with that,

Jenna Budreau-Roman: How would you treat that child? And can you do the same for yourself? I'll answer another email. I'll eat lunch later. Is that

Richard Zwicky: I'll challenge you, is people who have come through years of abuse, they've learned that behavior and so they think it's the appropriate one. So inevitably in that scenario, unless they've have woken up to it and a are aware of it, they're going to repeat it. So they are going to push that child to sleep less because they were told to get up early. They are going to push. They're going to do these things which prolong the cycle,

Jenna Budreau-Roman: And that could be true but I think there's typically warning signs if somebody's kind of at the point where maybe they're listening to this podcast specifically or

Richard Zwicky: Then they're going to be enlightened.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: I hope so. They like, " all my problems are solved." Yeah. But no maybe they're starting to become aware and that part about identifying the problem that there first of all is one because obviously if you don't know there is a problem you can't do anything about it. But perhaps on an even more basic level before we even start talking to our inner child what have you is to actually start to live in your own body to be aware of your body. And these are just simple things like putting your phone on do not disturb and just sitting for 90 seconds and looking at not focusing on anything, just breathing and feeling what it feels like inside your body. Going outside for a walk, meditation is so powerful for the mind body connection. So, just to start to get acquainted with your body again is huge, to start noticing cues like I'm tired, I'm sleepy, I'm hungry, all those things. And to start listening to your body, paying attention and, giving it what it wants. In a healthy self-compassionate way that very basic way of starting to tend to yourself and

00:30:00

Jenna Budreau-Roman: Your needs and then result in more mindfulness and being able to be aware of your thought patterns because so many of us we're just on autopilot we're not really thinking about what am I thinking about right now how am I feeling no it's okay I got a meeting I got this I have that I'm not thinking about how I'm feeling so challenging yourself in these quiet moments to slow down and check in to your body and how you're feeling and what's going on for you can be a really powerful tool to start increasing that self-compassion and that self-awareness.

Richard Zwicky: Self-awareness is also often you get to a point where you're frustrated. You're banging your head against the wall with trying to get through that next level and people just keep going. And, sometime I mean, it's the definition of insanity. Keep doing the same thing over and over even when it fails. But you get up and go for a walk. You get up and clear your head, the solution becomes clear often or at least your brain clears out so you can find it again. That actually brings me to you mention touched on and when people come to you at love and theory. Tell us about the organization.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: So my practice itself so it's called love and theory and it is catering to high achieving professionals and couples that despite their outward success on paper on the inside they feel lonely they feel exhausted they feel burnt out they feel disconnected usually the first time that somebody reaches out to me is because they realize I'm not living my life I'm not present with my kids. Children for whatever reason seem to be like having children themselves tends to be the driving factor for why a lot of my clients start coming to see me or even the idea of having children, excuse me, because of this fear of generational trauma because of this fear of I don't want to pass down something that hurt me so badly or my kids are giving me feedback that I'm not patient, I yell too much. Or even taking kids off out of the picture. If you don't have kids, you're not interested having kids, that's totally fine. But I'm no longer efficient. There's something wrong with me. I used to be able to crank out these things. I can't fix me. It's like, I'm not here to fix you because you're not broken. But I can help, as far as guiding you on this journey of self-awareness to help you become more efficient, but also more present and more self-loving.

Richard Zwicky: And that's the two parts you mentioned there. Sometimes it's just people come to it because they realize they're not as efficient. Sometimes the ones who have a lot of awareness going in recognize I'm about to have kids or I have kids and I want to correct the behavior before I do anything. It doesn't matter when you embark. It's getting to the point of being your authentic self is really something we all talk about, but so many don't take the time to achieve.

Jenna Budreau-Roman: I mean, and when you think about Maslo's hierarchy of needs, that self-actualization at the very top is, the ideal that we all want to get to. But it's hard,

Richard Zwicky: It is. So, people who want to learn more about love and theory and your work and get in touch, how can they do so?

Jenna Budreau-Roman: I'm on social media. I'm on Instagram. That's Dr. Jenna and there's an underscore between the doctor and Jenna. So, you can see some content there. If it speaks to you. I'm also on Tik Tok, Facebook. We also have our website loventheoryory.com love theory.com and there's blog posts on there just speaking more about trauma specifically relational trauma and high achievers. As well as codependency, things like that a lot of the people that come to see me often come in to talk about.

Richard Zwicky: Wonderful. Thanks for joining us today on the show, Jenna,

Jenna Budreau-Roman: Thank you so much for having me. This has been a blast.

Richard Zwicky: And thanks everybody for listening. I'm Richard Zviki with High on Healthy, and we'll be back again with you soon.