Hunger as a Compass: Reclaiming Your Original Relationship with Food

Richard Zwicky: Hi everyone, it's Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy, the show where we know there's no one path to healthy, so we explore them all. If you haven't subscribed yet, please do so on your favorite podcast listening device. So, a couple weeks ago or last week actually on the show, we had Dr. Todd Coleman from Stanford on and he was talking about how they're doing research into connecting the gut and the mind to understand sleep patterns, aging and a number of mental health issues. And today on the show we are welcoming Shirley Billingmemmer who is the founder of energetics and she focuses on how diet culture has long framed eating as a problem to control, \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Okay. I love it. Restrict or optimize but really counteratively it's what if I just did a terrible intro. I'm gonna start that again. I stumbled over my own words. Okay. Rasco is going to love cutting the first 30 seconds out. Hi everyone, it's Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy, the show where we know there's no one path to healthy, so we explore them all. If you haven't done so yet, please subscribe on your favorite podcast listening device. Diet culture has long been framed as an eating problem, as a means to which to control one's lives, restrict or optimize food. But what if health doesn't begin with rules, but restoring communication between body and mind? Interestingly, we had a discussion a week or so ago with Todd Coleman, who's from Stanford and researching the same issue from the perspective of the signals that go between the brain and the mind and how that affects one's mental health, aging, and stress. And today we're going to speak with Shirley Biligsm who is the founder of Energetics about choice hunger signals and how we can reconnect our original relationship to food and the pleasure it can derive but also how it can help us manage our mental health better. Welcome aboard the show Shirley. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Thanks, Richard. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Nice to be here. Of course, let me rephrase that. People who have dealt with eating disorders look at food one way. Those who don't look at the gut mind conversation from the same perspective, and we overlook the connection for the most part. You've spent decades helping people rethink their relationship with food. What convinced you that the real struggle wasn't food, but the loss of trust between people and their bodies. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Because years ago when I was struggling with my weight way back in high school being a cheerleader, \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: I could lose the weight. I could decide, okay, I'll eat this and I'll eat that and then I could lose the weight. That wasn't the issue. I could figure out how to do that. But what was left was this angst in me of wondering, am I gonna keep it off? Will it stay off? What eat much? How do I know if I eat too much? Right? \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: How will I know All of that in my head. I thought this does not make sense in my achievement world. Once you achieved that grade, you were done. And then you moved on and you learned something else. This kept turning in my mind. So, I went on a different path because none of that makes sense. And what I realized is there was a signal in my body that I understood when my first child was born. To She knew how much. And even better, she knew exactly when to stop eating. And that's what when I started realizing we've been on the wrong track. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: My graduate and undergraduates were from the University of Minnesota. But I decided I was going to figure this out \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: because no one was talking about hunger to any great degree. And people who have dealt with, bulimia or anorexia, it's a lifelong battle because it's often framed in our concept of ourselves. And you mentioned about food and the deals. Go ahead. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: It doesn't need to be lifelong. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: We were born with the natural eating boundary of hunger and taste. Once those are reconnected and resurfaced, we no longer need eating or \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: weight issues. It doesn't exist. And we're not meant to have extra storage because that's for a famine. Right. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: And I reconnect the person to their child knowing. We were all in incident at one time. So, we all know how to start and stop eating. It's just been interfered with tons of rules of eating.

00:05:00

Richard Zwicky: Let me explain to me the rules of eating because part of the challenge for people I know is not really the rule of eating. It's their self-perception of who they are and how they are. And food becomes a means by which they try and hide themselves or change to meet what they see in their mind as being perfect or better than they are today. And the food becomes a weapon of self-destruction. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: It only becomes a weapon when we lose our eating boundaries and \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: we start robbing taste to handle other feelings within our gut brain. And a lot of times my people say, "But I'm hungry all the time." And I said, "Not every feeling below the neck is hunger, but it's become fused over the years." So my work is to reconnect them to their original boundary so they can actually feel the feelings that are going on in their gut and \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: understand them rather than bury them. And exactly what you said or hype from themselves by eating instead of feeling the gut feel and addressing it with our own thoughts and actions. No. And that part is no longer burning. It's recognizing what's really going on, but it's not just willpower. It goes beyond that. Can you explain that to me? \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Yeah. It's not willpower at all because that comes from the head. I need to drop the person within their gut brain and I can easily do that with having them understand the hunger scale because hunger is within our gut brain. It lets us know when we need food And when we don't need food, when we understand that there's something else going on. What is it that's going on? Because our whole identity is within our gut brain. There are nine messages to one from the gut to the head. And there are beliefs in there that I call nonvaluebased beliefs. I'm always working underneath the food. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: The food always gets the blame. The food lands on top of this pain inside of this gut brain that's never been dealt with before. So the key to really resolve all issues is to understand what belief is sitting within the gut brain. That beliefs is an important part for people to reset as you go through different things. You're almost always resetting your values and beliefs. And when was the moment that you realized the restriction of food might be creating the very eating problems people are trying to resolve and how did you address that belief in people right that's the go ahead \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Because the \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: because yes, that's the exact second when you feel like, " I'm not going to eat this." There's a feeling that says, " I want to eat even more of it." the minute I felt that deprivation, because anything that has to do with eating or life, if there's a deprivation feel in there, the only way with eating that we can resolve that deprivation feeling is to eat more. And listeners can identify with that because the minute you say you're going to go on a diet and restrict the next day, what happens the night before? You want to eat just quantities. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Or if you've been on a diet for a long period of time or even a short period of time, you might say in the morning, I'm just not going to eat in the afternoon. Let's go. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: The second that deprivation thought surfaces, you have a desire to want to eat. And I'm always checking that desire to eat thought and understanding where did that come from? That's like a message to me that says something is going on. You check it out with your body, you're not hungry. Okay, what's going on? Many times people will say boredom and I let's get rid of the labels and let's look at what boredom means. It simply means you haven't made a decision yet as to what you're going to do in the next moment. It makes you think it and brightness. You do. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: unfortunately it works too well. It makes you think you should be able to make a decision instantly and You don't. You've got to give yourself time. Interesting you spoke about reconnecting people to their original eating boundaries, right? We have a boundary in our brain. We know we're connected. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: And this can come as early as infancy but we learn differently as we grow up and change our perception and our relationship with food and others. How did we lose access to those boundaries? \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: because how does an infant know when to stop eating? They feel that hunger, that's the start.

00:10:00

Richard Zwicky: \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Then when that feeling goes away, they know that's the time to stop eating. And the infant will the mother know. They'll clench their little lips. And they could care less what degree you had. They could care less how much they've had. And they certainly could care less what their diaper size is. They just want to stop eating. That feeling is a feeling of nothingness. They want to stop. However, if an well-meaning mother, doctors, whatever, say, "Okay, you need this many ounces." if you're bottlefed, then there's 2 ounces left of a 4 ounce that you were told your child needs. Right? \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: You start pressing that bottle on their little lip. That incense translates That's tension. And they go, "Okay, the tension went away before when I ate. Will the tension go away if I eat?" It not only goes away, you get a hug. You finished your food. That's what happens later. You get great hugs that you have finished your food. Though what is the natural stop feel uncomfortable feels wrong because you didn't finish your food. And now my 9-year-old client said, \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: I see we got comfortable with uncomfortableness. Now we're eating too much and that feel good. If eating, that's a very clear signal and people pick up on that understand and it's a communication not just between the gut and It's actually a nervous system communication to the brain. But when we look at the gut and \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Yeah. Yeah. The brain specifically, what are the messages that people are no longer able to hear or is it from what you're describing the nervous system which is overpowering the connections that we normally do get between the gut and the brain \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: It's unpacking and understanding all those messages that you never addressed because you didn't know how to address them. Right. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: You didn't know what was happening. And yet the body wants to feel calm. You want to stay connected to yourself. And so the only tool that you have growing up is to eat. So that eating becomes out of order because that hunger feels in the gut. So you feel something else. And does that feeling go away if you eat? Yes, it goes away instantly and it feels good. And so that becomes the tool to handle all those feelings within the gut brain. And so what my work is, and I've done this over five decades, I've been working with the gut brain that long. So it's always interesting to hear that they're finally studying because it's the key. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: It's the key to all eating and behavior issues because once we start unpacking what that feel is, all of a sudden my clients start realizing, there's so much information that I'm gathering and it might be past information because whatever you ate for in the past and you ate, That's still in the cell memory. So even though there might be something that's not true today, it was true at some point in your life. It's always coming from some truth of why you ate. And so when you feel that feeling, we start unpacking and then memories started. People go, " my word, I remember when I felt like that. I just worked with a client like that. She remembers growing up and being teased and just didn't feel comfortable." \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: When she got with certain groups of people, that would curse it. Even though those people were very kind, just being in a group of people surface that feeling. So, we identify it, we revisit understand it, and then we work on thoughts to let it go and change that belief that I need to feel nonvalue within a group of people. That makes sense. And to do that, you emphasized waiting for genuine hunger, but how do people recognize what genuine hunger is if they're getting all these mixed signals and their nervous system has been trained to I should expect a meal at 12:00 and 5:00 on. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Okay. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: yeah, I can show you in this moment now. And I'm going to have you do it, On a scale from zero to 10, zero being starved, 10 being stuffed. Five is the feeling of nothingness. You're not hungry. You're not crowded with a little too much food. That would be like a six or a seven. You might be getting maybe a little bit hungry, maybe a four, maybe a three. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: And that five is the feeling of nothingness, which I call balance. But is it the feeling of nothingness? If you put your mind in your stomach right now, Richard, what number in terms of quantity of food would you be at in this moment?

00:15:00

Richard Zwicky: I'm at a five. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Five. You knew it like that. I would talk to you Right. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: how many minutes. And so when you're hungry and when you're not and when you're satisfied and when you're not. And that knowing, we just stopped listening. We just stopped paying attention to it. We still know It's still there. You did it in a split second, a very few minutes talking to you. So, we all know it. I just show people how to reconnect to it, how to listen to it. And then once you discover that you're not hungry, \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: all right, what's that discomfort? There's probably a discomfort that we end up the minute there's a feeling of discomfort we end up detouring to eating because that was the neural pathway that we have been on for probably many years some people like I said since infancy Yes. But in the US there is a crisis of obesity and there's an incredible access to food. There's no shortage, right? There's more food wasted than is consumed. That's one of the challenges is 50% of all food produced is actually wasted, not consumed in inside the US. Why does that occur when it's the paradox there is more than enough food. So why are that leading to people choosing to overeat? Right. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Because they haven't been taught how to eat less and not feel deprived and how not to listen to all the food noise out there. I said with all this nutritional information, we created food noise. There's so much food noise up in people's heads in terms of Is that the right food and how many calories that food? You can't possibly know all that. So, what happens is the mind just starts turning in all that discussion. And now what happens? They create a drug that eliminates all the food noise that had been created by all the rules of eatings. But the point being is if we have the abundance and the paradox and question is turning off like that it's driven by the need to satisfy it isn't the challenge from the perspective it's not just turning it off. It's actually refraraming the relationship in the first place. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Yes, I like your word refraraming. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: I call turnaround thoughts. They're nonvaluebased beliefs that whole feeling like once people can really get connected to their eating boundaries. There will be less waste of food because you won't want to order as much. Does it really feel good to eat to 8 or 10? Usually that's nithery to eat that much food. When you finish eating, you want to feel energized. You want to seal that ceiling of balance I have energy to move into my day. So when the people really work on this process, many times they'll say to me, what, I used to store a food like there was a famine coming. Now I realize I don't need that much food. So I work from the inside out so that when you go out to eat, \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: you don't order as much. If you have ordered too much, you take the food home. There becomes less and less waste and less and less food that is needed to feed the world. Yes. One of the things that you're pointing out is that modern food environments are engineered for overconumption. And the signals we've been learning are targeting over consumption which of course then drives adoption of weight loss drugs, weight loss, diet programs, everything else. But that's a horrible cycle that everybody gets into, The ideal cycle is you never need any of it. Go ahead. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: And it's just like Right. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Yeah. The thing is with that feeling of what science is trying to get us to eat more and more and more and then we get heavier and heavier and heavier. The wisdom of one's own body is stronger than any science. That's why I like to connect people to their own wisdom Yeah. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: because it just doesn't feel good to overeat no matter what. And people say, what about all these processed foods?" I even address that because I don't interfere with choice. I was going to ask that. That's where I was going to go. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Yeah, I was gonna I Is that processed foods are, forget the fact of their direct health consequence. They're actually designed to cause you to eat more, to consume more, to want more because they have the higher fat content, the sugars that give you the spikes. And they taste good as opposed to if you're eating some foods you might say I don't want to sit down with a plate of broccoli carrots and celery and yet that's loaded with nutritions and I have a good friend of mine who always used to say broccoli is all you ever need because you can survive on that broccoli and eggs alone basically but broccoli is all you'll ever need to survive and that's the truth but you don't want to sit down on a five course meal with just a plate of broccoli at one after So we have these processed foods that sit in front of us

00:20:00

Richard Zwicky: Which are really good and tasty and everything else, but they don't do anything for us in the long run. But people are used to that, And they're not used to going and choosing the other options. How do we get the body wisdom to actually listen to, hey, I need more of this and less of the other stuff as opposed to just mindfully saying That's and \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: That's the beauty. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Yep. That's the beauty of the process because I never interfere with choice. I never tell them what to eat because whoever owns the choice owns the power. And I want to empower my clients so that they know they got to their weight, to their health, with their own decisions, with their own choice. But how do you get there? It's eating back in order. Once And I need to connect them to themselves. Yep. And sorry I'm going to interject. In fact, How do you do that without creating shame? Because somebody who's coming to you with that situation feels bad about themselves. They're ashamed that they got into that position and they want to be better, but they're not in a positive place. So, if we're immediately saying, it's almost moralizing about their altered food identities or and eating habits, which is their identities, how do you move them without causing more shame? Right. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Yeah, this is all about abundance and \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: a good feel. It's all valuebased and it's all abundance of a good feel because when you talk about shame, we're not meant to have storage. And I just worked with a client like this. I said, you don't need to like your story. That's why I call it storage. It's stored information. And we will get there. But we need to address the eating issue at the very core of the essence of who we are, our hunger boundaries. They don't have to like their stories. That would be crazy to say, "Love your stories where you are." There's so much shame, like you said, and all of that. We're going to get down to the value base of the person being able to have the right to really get back to listening to themselves. But how do we do that? \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: What's the first thing I do with them to start this process? And the first thing I do, I need to have them sit. I need to have them aware that they're starting to eat because there's so much mindless eating. I need to have that concrete awareness. And people will call it intuitive eating, but it's really even beyond intuitive eating because I call it a recording card. Right. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: It only records the hunger signal. I need a tool though that when you open up choice that's usually a panic in people because they've used the rules of eating to have a semi boundary but it never lasts because if they're following somebody else's rules or nutrition rules eventually they feel deprived and they'll end up like I said you can't want the should I open up all choice so that you can want a should and that's where a lot of my clients will say once they've opened up choice It's amazing, she said, because once you really feel that hunger, there are times that they will say, all of a sudden, I felt like I wanted to sell it. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: because you think you only want what you were told not to have because you can't want a should. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: So We all think we want the opposite of what is healthy. We want what gives us satisfaction in the short term because we don't wait for the long term. And the healthier dishes actually tend to satisfy us for a longer time but we don't get that often. They're not prepared or we don't prepare them in a way which gives us that immediate satisfaction because it's not part of the regular culture. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: right that immediate moment that you're not hungry and \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: and you know that you want something. If you're not hungry and you're not sitting to eat, if you're not hungry, you have to have something that's higher intense. Yeah, I love broccoli, but \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: You have to have higher sweet because a broccoli is not going to do it. It's just not because You're using it. Yeah. So do I. But you're using the food above and beyond your own thoughts. And that's the key point because our own thoughts were meant to handle a feeling within ourselves. And that feeling is uncomfortable. And that's where my clients realize at first they feel uncomfortable staying with themselves because it's really a running from yourself if you're not hungry and you have that detour to eating. You have that instant desire to want to feel good in the moment because It works too well is a problem.

00:25:00

Richard Zwicky: And when people start to understand that they're having to restore trust in eating as a pro as a proper function and not just a sating other needs, How does it ripple outward into other areas of life into the decision-m relationships? \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: That's so interesting that you say that because when people start working with me, they say, "I came to you to lose weight." What you are giving me now is how to handle life without using the tool of eating out of order. And you gradually start reclaiming your own identity when that feeling starts to happen. And at first you get through the easier things and then as you develop more and more tools like there'll be times that it feels so intense and you I call it the magnetism to eating where my word it's so strong. It's like they don't even want to text me. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: the only one call me. It just was so strong I just ate and I knew you talked me out of eating. I wanted to eat. And so it's those feelings that I'm constantly addressing. So my process is very different because I'm working one. They have access to me all the time because I want to catch as close as I can to that moment to show them that they can move through that moment. And then on the other side of it, they gain confidence that they can continuously handle those moment to moment I feelings within their day. So it's so far beyond just the weight falls off naturally as you stay connected to yourself because when you're not hungry I always say to the people would you eat less food? Yes. U if you ate less food would you lose weight? They'll say yes. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: I said, "Good. We need to put those sides and weight thoughts on the shelf because if you're thinking shides and weight, and you're not where you want to be. You're uncomfortable and there's nothing to do. So, what are you going to do? You're going to eat. You feel miserable because you don't like your size and weight. So, I give them that right to not their size and weight. Let's put it on the shelf. We're working with the source of the issue to give you back your identity, to give you back your confidence that you don't want to use that tool of eating when you're not hungry \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: because you want to know what's going on within your own life. And that becomes a respect of your body becomes tangible rather than abstract. But what's the first practical step that somebody can take towards rebuilding that? \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Yes. Yep. They know there's something there. They know that, they can look and say, "I don't like my relationship with food, but I'm hungry all the time and I'm, just tired of getting on the treadmill of the greatest diet fed." What's a practical step that somebody can take that isn't, we don't have to go full boore over and let's put it this way. People are used to failing at the latest diet. This has to be based on success. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Yes. Yes. What's a practical step that actually allows them to understand, hey, there is this connection and I can regain control. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: That's interesting when you said failure because when they come to me there's just that hesitation even start to work on one more thing because they're so sick of failing at this and I said this is the process that isn't about failure there is no failure because on a pathway to yourself I'm taking out the interfering so that you can come back to yourself. I don't put on another rule. I take off all the rules and I create a process so that they are guided back to themselves gradually as they gain more and right? \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: more confidence how to handle their life without eating. So the first three things very tangible and it's interesting that you said concrete because hunger is abstract. You can't see it. You can only feel it. So you need some concrete steps that say I am starting to eat and now I'm stopping out of respect to my body. That's what we're looking for, aren't we? The boundaries of eating where we don't eat excess. And yet it meant to give us pleasure tastes and it's meant to give us energy. That's what food.

00:30:00

Richard Zwicky: \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: because a desire to eat thought when you're not hungry g is giving you a message about yourself. So what are the three things that I start them with? Number one is to sit. You're sit before you start to Just sit. And people say to me, I don't have time to sit and eat." And I said, "If you don't have time to sit and eat, you don't have time to eat because there's always time in your day." Because I said, "If you took out all the frustration of eating and diet and sigh and wait, would you have more time?" Yes. Okay, that's where we're headed. I'm going to give you back more time, but hit before you eat. And then feel a calm like just take a few seconds to breathe to feel calm. Mhm. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: And then when you start to understand are you hungry? Are and I work with that scale and sometimes I start them maybe from a three to a seven. Maybe they've eaten from a six to a 10 all their life. And so it's a gradual process that I work through my process so that they always feel like they're accomplishing something. At least I'm sitting. At least I'm a little bit hungry. There's never a failure. And then the other thing, I guess there's four. I'd say do nothing else while you're eating. That's probably the most difficult, but just test it out there. Even just television when you're eating. And people say, "But when I'm alone, I just want to watch television." I said, " just practice this while you're alone." Start eating, \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: have the television off, then turn it on and see the difference of what it feels like to really pay attention to the taste. People start really tasting food when they work with me. Right. Mhm. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: They start really enjoying the food. And that's the thing with the French people. That's why they had a country structure and they're starting to lose it now. So now the weight is starting to come on for them. But they always fat and they always knew they were going to choose exactly what they wanted and they always knew they were going to eat again. There were no deprivation thought around food at all and Right. Right. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: They respected. So it naturally happened that they would eat less. They weren't going to store up because they weren't going to eat the rest of the day. They knew they were going to eat again at lunch. They knew they were going to enjoy it. And that was a country structure like I said but I internalized them so that it's a structure within that And what's interesting about that is as you go down this path and change your perception and need regarding food, any other diet you're doing can still work with you. And that's part of the beauty. This isn't just you have to abandon everything else and follow this one regimen. It's actually every other diet's should be trying to help you change your attitude towards food. And this one in doing will give you the perspect better perspective of how to do it and how to understand yourself and when you need it. Surely we are running out of time for today but people want to learn more about energetics and your strategies and your programs how can they reach out \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: They can follow me on Instagram. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: It's called energetics methods. They can go to my website, energetics.com. And I always have to spell it because they hear energetics, but they think It's i n e r. Energetics. Energy or they could email me at surirleyenergetics.com because I want them to know that it really is the only way to get back to your natural eating boundaries of hunger and \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: It's your inherent right. It is. It's you control. I own me is the thing I always tell people. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Yep. Shirley, thanks for joining us today on High on Healthy. That's right. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: it was so fun talking with you because I love the whole experience of people really understanding that there is a way to not have an issue. Eating is meant to give you energy. It was never meant to drain our energy. That's very true. And it was a really interesting discussion. And thanks to everybody for listening. \+1 612-\*\*\*-\*\*99: Thank you. I'm Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy. And we'll be back again with you soon.