When More Isn’t Happier: Unpacking the Burnout in Achievement Culture

Richard Zwicky: Hi everyone, it's Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy, the show where we know there's no one path to healthy, so we examine them all. If you haven't subscribed yet, please do so on your favorite podcast listening tool. Have you ever stopped to consider how consumer culture is quietly shaping some people's self-worth, identity, and even their mental health? And how when we think of ambition as connected directly to monetary gain and show our attention on individuals who not for what they do but for how much they earn. What's the psychological impact on them on us and the people around us? This episode's going to explore the psychological costs of living inside systems that reward productivity and the acquisition of commercial goods effectively and the constant comparison to others and why many high achievers struggle with anxiety, burnout, and chronic dissatisfaction despite earning what others would deem to be incredible successes. Joining today we have Zoe Spears, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist based in Los Angeles who specializes in helping high achievers and perfectionists, which I've struggled with myself over the years, reclaim their relationship with themselves within the realities of, modern culture. Welcome aboard the show, Zoe.

Zoe Spears: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me here.

Richard Zwicky: So, many people feel exhausted. They feel anxious. They should be doing more. They're not doing enough. Despite really accomplishing amazing things because they think that doing something more is going to make them happy or happier. Where did this modern achievement culture actually come from? And what does it get wrong about who we as humans are? Because, 25,000 years ago, our brains were pretty much the same as they are today, but we had different necessities.

Zoe Spears: I believe that where this really started is with industrialism and capitalism. Before then, we didn't have this concept of an eight hour workday. And yet now there is this pressure to work a minimum of 40 hours a week and for a lot of jobs much more than that 80 hours a week which is not typically sustainable for most people.

Richard Zwicky: And that's true of many other areas of the world not most of the other areas look at 40 hours as being excessive right there is a balance and what sets that apart right and for I am a cap I believe in capitalism in terms of we go and earn and do things but not to the detriment of others.

Zoe Spears: What sets the US apart from that?

Richard Zwicky: You can be capitalist and still believe in society and helping others and that's where the US is slightly different. There was quite a bit different of skew from so many other cultures in around the world. What sets that apart? Yeah. Yeah.

Zoe Spears: That's a good question and I'm speaking merely as a therapist. So I don't have a background in understanding buy and

Richard Zwicky: No, but you see patients who come from around the world and

Zoe Spears: Demand but right I typically work with and

Richard Zwicky: So you see their cultural differences and how they're approaching things and their points of resistance must be different as well.

Zoe Spears: I'll just speak from my experience work with a lot of high achievers and often that come starts at a really young age often times they grow up in culture society whether that's pressure from parents pressure from peers which is something we don't often think about or talk about, but there can be a lot of pressure and competition amongst peers. I know this specifically and I'm just speaking to clients who come from Chinese culture and Chinese background where there is a ranking system that starts at a really early age and everyone knows where they are ranked among their peers and so it starts at a really young age where kids are taught to compare and be competitive and that their self-worth is really tied to their sense of achievement.

Richard Zwicky: It's if I use an analogy to the past, it's very Spartan but the Spartan was all about the military power. This is about the economic power, the gain. The idea that we should always be optimizing ourselves is part of this. At what point does growth stop being self-expression and become self-destructive?

Zoe Spears: I think when it becomes self-destructive is when it's coming from an external place and not an internal desire.

Richard Zwicky: I mean that's very true, but I mean we go to work, our bosses, if they're supportive, they're trying to help us grow. Where does inflection,

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Richard Zwicky: That can be positive because it's helping us develop into more. And if we have a great boss where they're looking for how do I help this person maximize their potential as people not just operators at what point does it become abusive and it can be self abusive Right.

Zoe Spears: And I would say that's true for most of my clients. Most of them come in and sure they might have external pressures from bosses, but a lot of times that pressure is internalized, right? Those external messages and those external voices that they've lived with for so long become integrated into the self, And so a lot of times they might even say, no one is putting pressure on me but myself and yet I still have this part of me that feels like whatever I do is not good enough." I think perfectionism and achievement oftentimes go hand in hand, right? And perfectionism can really negatively impact growth in a lot of ways. When people are afraid to fail, they're afraid to make mistakes. They feel like they always have to do everything at 100%.

Richard Zwicky: It actually gets in the way of success because you're right. You can't polish a sphere to make it any more spherical. It's there.

Zoe Spears: And so I don't see capitalism kind of to your point as this negative thing. I think that's a very black and white way of looking at Capitalism is a part of our culture and society whether we like it or not. And rather than demonizing it which really isn't going to do much to change things from a societal lenses, how do we learn to integrate it into a way that feels good for us? And how can we hold both of those things as true? Rather than letting capitalism take over and achievement and success being the main goal, how can we integrate the desire for growth while also acknowledging our own capacity too? Mhm.

Richard Zwicky: On that when people come to see you, they're already beginning to reflect on how things around this area are off. How do people begin to recognize that or what are some points that people often they come to and they may miss, but often it's that signal that, you should pay attention to this. What are some signs that you commonly see or think people should pay attention to more?

Zoe Spears: I would say one of the most common symptoms that people come in or they might first recognize is burnout. They're feeling a really hard time motivating themselves to do work and maybe even to do anything. Everything feels really difficult, really hard. Motivation is extremely difficult. And at the same time, there's also this crushing anxiety that's saying, "But you should be doing more." And something is wrong with you for not being motivated for not wanting to do more. And so oftentimes there's a really strong internal critic that is pushing them. And yet the motivation isn't there, and that strategy isn't working. It's not effective for them. Mhm. Absolutely.

Richard Zwicky: A of that you mentioned Peers drive a lot of people's consumer trends. I have to have that new shirt. I saw, my friend had it. I think I have to have it too that consumer culture promises relief through acquisition of things not experiences less because experiences are so diverse there's some where people think I have to go ride a balloon across the Serengeti because my neighbor did but for most experiences are different than things and acquisition psychologically what is actually being pursued by people under That constant desire for more things.

Zoe Spears: I think at its core people think that this person has something that I don't have, and if I have that, then I be happier. I will be successful. I will be viewed in a certain way by other people. I'll be seen as more attractive. And I think this is a big part of influencer culture and social media online, right? That we don't even have to know someone directly to be influenced by them. And that's why there is an entire market of influencer culture, That look at this person, their life looks amazing. And they told me that they use this product. So therefore, if I want to be like them, I need to use this product.

Richard Zwicky: There's a lot of that and feeling by association by using somebody's product, you become a little bit like them. I've heard that a number of times,

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Richard Zwicky: What's beautiful about us is we're all unique, And we recognize in some ways, but we don't in others. And we try and blend in by doing those things, which is curious in its own, which is also why a lot of people, feel strangely empty after buying that item, after securing it, because they've achieved it, they've got it, and then the statement is and now what? Because it's not them, right? Yeah.

Zoe Spears: And it's also a short-term dopamine fix. It feels really good in the moment, but then that dissipates and the brain says, what now? When are we going to get our next dopamine hit and our next dopamine fix?" And this can apply to so many things. It can apply to consumerism. It can be applied to binge watching TV. It can be applied to overeating. It can be applied to substance consumerism is just one form of that. And I think a lot of times it's seen as a lesser harmful form as those other things that I mentioned, but it can absolutely be damaging. Right.

Richard Zwicky: It's a form of addiction. We just don't speak about it that same way. We don't look at it that way. Because it's too pervasive, right? As you touched on a second ago, social media has turned identity into something that's also bought and sold and it's measured. That throws people's self-perspective off around so many aspects. But in a system where that attention is monetized, where do we, when you have high performers come in who are struggling with, they out, they're seen by this many people, they're used to acquiring this, they have to keep showing and showing and showing and they lose themselves. The process isn't just for those high performers. Is for people who are at any stage where they've gone beyond their means to support themselves and they lose track of who they are. What are the common themes you see that people overlook in themselves often.

Zoe Spears: When you say what people overlook meaning what do they not recognize in themselves? Yeah.

Richard Zwicky: Because people struggle with all sorts of things and we can put our fingers on different aspects, but a lot of times like people will say, " I have anxiety." But the reality is most people have depression. Anxiety is one way it represents itself. And when we have, the consumerism or we have the need to demonstrate we are keeping up or getting ahead in those ways but still have that emptiness because it's not ourse Symptomatically, it references something else within ourselves. And it doesn't matter if you're that high performer that's way out there or you're just going through, you think your life. If you get on that treadmill, you often miss the signs of what's really the underlying issue. How do you help people see that or help people how can you help people recognize that so they know even where they are? They can take that step back and understand, hey, wait a second, what's really going on here? Yep.

Zoe Spears: As we touched on earlier, often times it's a way to replace this feeling of emptiness, that is at its core. If I numb or distract or keep myself busy or if I buy this external thing then I will feel good enough. Right? So a lot of times with my clients we get to where is the root of this coming from? Where is this consumerism coming from? Is it a desire that you feel like you're not good enough? That you need to obtain all of this monetary ways of feeling like you're good enough. So helping them to identify what is the core root that is essentially propelling this behavior, And can we actually work to heal this root issue? Because if that root feeling isn't dealt with or isn't addressed, the behavior is going to continue.

Richard Zwicky: It will continue. And one of the challenges you must face is therapy itself is increasingly being marketed as another form of self-optimization. Have you done the work and it is broadly based as people think if you've done some you're self-optimizing you're getting ahead. It becomes something to participate in and

Zoe Spears: It's another thing to check off.

Richard Zwicky: Do you ever worry that mental health is being absorbed into that consumer logic rather than being part of the process to understand it's becoming part of the process of checking that box. Yeah.

Zoe Spears: I think in a lot of ways because mental health is more accessible because it is something that is talked about more in the culture which ultimately I think is a positive thing. It encourages people to be self-reflective. It encourages them to work on themselves. But I absolutely do think that a lot of times it can be seen as like I said, something to check off or something to even think of in terms of a monetary value. Are you in therapy? I'm in therapy and it can be seen as this almost protective shield like I'm going to therapy.

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Zoe Spears: I'm showing up, but are you actually doing the work? And a lot of times I notice even with my clients there's a lot of productivity mindset within therapy. A lot of clients become so fixated on the end result that they don't allow themselves to go through the process of it.

Richard Zwicky: A lot of people like the easy button And that's challenging because this learning about yourself isn't easy. No, it absolutely isn't.

Zoe Spears: And it also isn't linear. And a lot of people tend to struggle with that because they're so used to seeing productivity and achievement, especially when we look at it within a capitalist lens, as this linear progression. But rarely is therapy linear.

Richard Zwicky: You can't predict when you're going to have those revelations or those moments that trigger you. It's if we knew that it would be easy and would be through the therapy to be able to predict what's hitting us right now. One of the other aspects of this is entrepreneurs, high performers, business leaders, anybody in a leadership position often deals with imposttor syndrome which is that racking feeling of self-doubt. Am I good enough? Why haven't people discovered that I'm really not as far ahead as they think I am? Or what's going on and they keep going there's a fear of failure but there's a sense of everybody depends on me to be this person I can't not be myself how you must see that a lot how do you address

Zoe Spears: A lot of times I hear that I have clients come to therapy who say, I'm really good at holding it together for everybody else. And on the surface, I look like I have it together. I have a quote unquote good job, I'm successful in all these other areas of life, I seem, again, from a capitalist point of view, when we're only looking at monetary gain as success. Yeah, from the outside, I look successful, But internally, I'm feeling this crushing weight and this pressure to be this person that other people either expect from me or this self-image that I have portrayed to other people. And they come into therapy because they're so overwhelmed and they don't know how to drop the mask.

Richard Zwicky: Or the market expects and depends them to be because if they go off market their value could drop the value of what they're doing. It was funny. I was watching a video with Matthew Mccon earlier today and he talked about how he decided one day to no longer do romcoms and people kept sending him scripts for romcoms. He said I'm not doing them. And it took I think 20 months before he was presented with a role as a drama as opposed to a romcom. And since then he's done lots, but he recognized this isn't me. It wasn't just an artistic thing. I am different. And I'm willing to risk everything to be authentic about it. That's uncommon.

Zoe Spears: It is uncommon and I think we can speak to that he may have certain privileges that allow him to do that from a financial point of view. Exactly. But I think it does address this underlying scarcity mindset that a lot of people have this fear of

Richard Zwicky: He had a bigger bank account to weather the storm but it's often not true.

Zoe Spears: If I don't do this then everything is going to fall apart which is often not true.

Richard Zwicky: And we don't all have to take the extreme measures to become right. We can just start living authentically and doing our own thing along the way. We also don't have the same demands on us in terms of when you start having that kind of wealth, you start supporting a lot of people around you. We don't need those things, which goes back to how do people begin rebuilding that compass for the most part because they're outsourcing everything about themselves.

Zoe Spears: Where I think the beauty of therapy is that there is no external goal in terms of the client might come in and say I want to work on X Y and Z but I have no agenda right it doesn't matter to me whether they are successful in their job and are high achieving of course I want them to be able to support themselves and to be stable but I think what's really great is they come into therapy and realize okay there isn't pressure in this space of what that looks like. And that really allows people to be able to reflect internally and to be able to identify, what is important to me? What do I want my life to look like? And how can we integrate this? Again, understanding that we do live in a capitalist society and your boss is going to have demands and that doesn't mean that you just say, "No, I'm not going to do that." Right?

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Zoe Spears: But how can we work towards integrating more internal selfworth versus external selfworth? So focusing on What makes me feel good outside of achievement outside of this status? And if no one were looking, would I respond in the Would I be showing up in the same way if it was truly for internal fulfillment or not? Absolutely.

Richard Zwicky: And dealing with these issues often uncovers much more deeply rooted points of origin right, with people's adverse childhood experiences because you're left almost inevitably with in the lightest sense some sense of lack of selfworth that this happened to you that you weren't deserving of a better outcome or that something was wrong along the way especially for anybody who's been victimized by any form of abuse you deserve less this is why you were treated this way that also comes into driving a lot of people who head towards perfectionism and high performance and when they're uncovering these things, the layers aren't just about the use of how do you see a tendency of people who are dealing with these things who haven't really uncovered the root origin that they're using these consumerism to compensate for the lack of self-worth that has a much more deeply rooted origin.

Zoe Spears: I think a lot of times people recognize the symptoms of burnout and they might even come to therapy saying I want to manage my depression or my anxiety or my burnout and might not understand how they are perpetuating that through their own behavior. And that's the work that I feel really passionate about is doing that origin work right of why does it feel so important to be productive and achieving all the time and sure we can talk about it from a cultural societal lens but often times it starts with the home right where do you feel like you got attention and affection and love and care and for a lot of people that was conditional and so they learned that okay when I'm doing X Y and I get attention, praise, love, And so they learn that, when I'm achieving, people care about me. I feel valued, right? And so unconsciously, it creates this pattern of constantly striving for perfectionism, for achievement, for success, for status out of really this fear-based space. Because if I don't have this, then what does that mean? Am I unlovable? Will everyone leave me? Right? And what I feel so passionate about is helping people to get to that moment where they realize where the root of this is coming from and can really work to heal that part. Because again, if that part isn't dealt with and that part isn't healed or even acknowledged, the behavior is going to continue.

Richard Zwicky: It will. And unfortunately, consumerism it thrives, but it feeds off of dissatisfaction that something about us is incomplete. And if it trains us to relate to ourselves as a project to manage to acquire these goods and things to represent ourselves to the world, its and masking is something which people struggle to overcome because they lose sense of when to take it off, when to be themselves. And for some it's a productive measure, but you need to be able to have your authentic true self showing some of the time to be able to have it all the time. Psychologically what does it mean for people when they actually recognize they have to take that off? And why does it feel so unfamiliar to most? Yep.

Zoe Spears: I think at its core there is a real fear for people that if they let that mask down then things will explode, that suddenly their boss won't see them as a good enough worker, right, or high performing. Their family might view them in a different way. And so I think at its core there's a real fear that they will lose everything if they drop that mask

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Zoe Spears: Because they've been so used to getting this praise and this positive reinforcement that there is a fear that without it everything will cease to exist.

Richard Zwicky: It will. And there's a recognition that ambition and being are compatible, right? Ambition isn't just about monetary gain but we've conflated the two. How do you help people recognize that? Okay. Yeah,

Zoe Spears: Sorry, I'm having a brain lapse. Can you restart the question?

Richard Zwicky: We'll take a few seconds. I did air. So, for a lot of people, ambition and being are intrinsically tied together. And ambition is all about monetary gain. It's about getting that promotion. It's about getting a higher position. But ambition is really monetary things. It's about self-rowth. And that can be about anything. It could even be about, I'm starting to do pottery and learning to make my first bowl and I'm ambitious. I want to learn to make a set of plates. Right? It's things. But it requires conscious boundaries to recognize how that ties into well-being. How do you help people recognize that? Then start to divert their attention away from just one path because it's their selfworth, right?

Zoe Spears: And I like that you use the pottery example because a lot of times for my clients, this mindset doesn't just apply to work. It applies to how they operate as a parent. It applies to how they show up with friends. It applies to even just hobbies and interests. When you're taking that productivity mindset and the focus is on achievement, even something like pottery, which in an ideal space is something that you enjoy and you feel this creative outlet becomes this highressured situation. So the way that I help clients work with that is scaling back from what is the achievement or the outcome you want externally to why are you doing in the first place? Like reconnecting back with internal values.

Richard Zwicky: Then reconnection is a huge part of the process. We are low on time Zoe but people who want to learn more about you to reach out to you and who are struggling with their perspective on themselves and feeling imbalanced how can they reach you and who's the ideal person to contact you

Zoe Spears: So, I work with individuals and couples who are struggling with high achievement related burnout, perfectionism, people pleasing. And this also relates to couples work too, especially if there's one person or both people in the couple that identify with that. That can obviously create negative impacts on the relationship. If you want to find me you can go to my website, connected therapycal.com. And I can also send you my socials in the show notes if that's possible. I have an Instagram and

Richard Zwicky: Y what's your handle on Instagram or

Zoe Spears: Tik Tok where I talk about themes of psychology. Yeah, on Instagram it's the\_attachment therapist and

Richard Zwicky: Tik Awesome. All right.

Zoe Spears: On Tik Tok it's the attachment t h e r. So the attachment there. All one word.

Richard Zwicky: Thanks for joining us stay on High on Healthy. Zoe been interested in conversation. Yeah.

Zoe Spears: Thank you so much. Glad to be here. Absolutely.