The Silent Crisis of Success: Nick Jonsson on Redefining Executive Loneliness

Richard Zwicky: Hi everyone, it's Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy, the show where we know there's no one path to healthy. So we look at them all. And for generations, we've assumed that loneliness is simply a question of people who have the absence of others in their lives. But what if that's completely wrong and loneliness is something much deeper and something that we're changing dramatically in modern society? Because today we're more connected than in any point in human history. In fact, your community doesn't have physical boundaries. It only has boundaries based on interests. People can be anywhere in the world. And we carry thousands of contacts in our pockets whether it's through, people we've met around the world, people in Facebook who are dispersed or people who attend Zoom meetings across continents. In fact, this show is being recorded to people on two different continents right now. And as we go and we scroll, endless social media feeds seeing about all the wonderful things everybody else is doing, these affect us. And we discover loneliness isn't about being alone. How can we be lonely when we're more connected than ever? And joining us today, we've got Nick Johnson, who is a psychotherapist executive coach, and best-selling author of Executive Loneliness, and also the founder of Southeast Asia's largest peer advisory network for CEOs. Welcome aboard the show, Nick.

Nick Jonsson: Thank you so much Great to be here and thank you for covering such an important topic.

Richard Zwicky: It's one that comes up repeatedly in not just these conversations but in day-to-day life and my work where I'm talking with a lot of the universities and they're having stark issues with loneliness where the students used to attend the school they would hang out at I went to Miguel there was the Peele pub there was of course every university has their sub and there would be that engagement And today it Loneliness is becoming recognized from a mental health perspective as one of the greatest public health challenges of our time. Why do you think we've misunderstood it so profoundly that it's crept up on us in this way?

Nick Jonsson: I think we weren't ready for this modern revolution or the digitalization. And if you look at a younger generation today, like you said, you go anywhere, if it's on a train or you go to school, everyone will just sit glued to the devices. And it seems like, while perhaps the older generation were hooked on other things, maybe it was a binge watching TV or maybe it was going to the pub or drinking alcohol, whatever it was, that was perhaps some of the challenges that we had in our generation. But the younger generation, many of them are actually addicted to the digital devices and all the communication that is happening there. So that is a major issue.

Richard Zwicky: I mentioned students, but of course executives feel a tremendous amount of loneliness. We always talk about it's lonely at the top. And when you're a CEO, you really are lonely in that role, even if you're surrounded by people and trust. Loneliness doesn't discriminate, but how has it become different for the executives than it has for everybody else over the last little while?

Nick Jonsson: So we have this saying right that it's lonely at the top. So that was basically when I start to do research for my book in 2019 that was the material that was out there. So we understand being a CEO it doesn't matter if it's a small company it's a big company being the CEO it's lonely at the top you have no one else at your level to discuss this with we got that but what I wanted to understand then was what about in the middle of the organization does loneliness also exist there so that's what I wanted to look at and what I then found was that let's say that you're an entry level of the organization then typically there's a lot of colleagues at your level a lot of peers you can have p communicate conversations But then for every layer you move up the corporate ladder, it gets more and more competitive and perhaps we start to fight almost or maybe elbow our way as I say to the top of the corporate ladder and we want to set ourselves up for the next promotion. So what happens then is we are not vulnerable. We don't want to show weakness. It's like we're putting on that facade. We're putting on a mask and we want to portray the best to everyone. And that is where the loneliness grows. Because if we are scared to ask for help, if we are scared to show any weaknesses whatsoever then we are forcing ourselves to be someone who we clearly are not. And that's what happened to me. It didn't happen in all my roles, but it happened in one role particular, and that was the fall of me out of the corporate world about a decade ago.

Richard Zwicky: And tell us a little bit about

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Richard Zwicky: What happened to you.

Nick Jonsson: So, I was a high achiever. I had senior roles in various countries around Asia and my weakness I would say would be formulas numbers in Microsoft Excel and in a couple of senior roles I was quite upfront with this already in the job interviews I would say by the way there's a few things that I would need to ask for some support and as I laid that out up front and they were there they would send in additional support maybe the CFO would come and visit me once a quarter we spend half a day to go over stuff just for me to get clarity and it worked wonderful. I could therefore hold very senior positions and deliver. What happened then in my last corporate role? I didn't declare that up front. I didn't state it. And I remember that we were bidding on some big projects at the time. And I remember starting to feel quite insecure about the numbers, the formulas. It just happened also that my team were not very skilled. They will

Richard Zwicky: And that's got to be incredibly frustrating in your professional career

Nick Jonsson: And some were on sick leaves and instead of at that moment escalate this and ask for help. I remember taking it on myself. I started to work longer. I worked on the weekends and with that I started to basically burn out and then I was caught in it. It was too late to ask for help and that was really that loneliness I felt then and it lasted for about one year before I basically resigned.

Richard Zwicky: Where people define themselves so much by what they do and having to resign it and walk away from it and walk away from yourself. That must add a level of loneliness when others see you go. And how do they react?

Nick Jonsson: And we normally see them perhaps as the quiet resignations And when they challenged me and asked me why, I also couldn't have any answers because I played this in one year in my head. I was out of there. And it was only my perception also that I wasn't performing. It was because of the anxiety and the loneliness I had internally. I was still delivering good results. So they were quite shocked and surprised when I resigned. They said, "Is it the Jakata traffic? Can we move you to Dubai? We have a new role in the US for you. Would you be interested in this?" But at that time I was so sick that I couldn't have any conversation. I remember coming home to my ex-wife and sharing what have happened. I didn't even discuss it with her because of the meltdown states I was in. She challenged me and rightly so she should have because this was my dream job. But then I couldn't have that conversation either. So I pushed her away and eventually also I filed for divorce. So same behavior at work is too painful. So I resigned. Same with the relationship at home. And that's sadly what is happening to us. If we suffer from loneliness and we don't have the connection, then it's easier to just walk away and push everyone we love including great jobs and perhaps our families away because we just isolate oursel further.

Richard Zwicky: We do. And for so many the pandemic isolated us physically but also emotionally from others and people turn to social media as a way to reconnect. But did it actually replace relationships or did it create false exposure which exacerbates the problem?

Nick Jonsson: I would say it depends how we use social media. It can be like everything in the world. There can be a healthy way of using it and we can make also abuse it and it can be an unhealthy way. And let me give you an example perhaps of a healthy way. So these days I run immense group and it's a community where we check in the morning we share a gratitude list on what we are grateful for today to appreciate the good things we have in our life. So that's basically our motto just check in the morning and be grateful for something. Then we have a monthly call. So we also promote here's the monthly call and maybe leading up to that some questions and the theme and so on. So we use it basically as a hub for also catching up online for our monthly meeting as well as when we have a chance to meet in person and then I think it fills what it should it's a communication channel but it doesn't mean that we only rely on that and I like how you started this call Richard that it is if we are watching on this social media and everything that is happening we're watching others lives and we have that fear of missing out and we become jealous and that is when it's become harmful. I think watching other people's life instead of using it for our own well-being and for human connection which we need. So I think that's a bit of the differences that I've seen.

Richard Zwicky: I find social media has made us experts at broadcasting ourselves but also forced us to become strangers more so for those who are trying to be influencers who are chasing that magic moment and missing out on the true magic between ourselves. Has visibility replaced vulnerability?

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Nick Jonsson: I believe so. And in my case, Rich and I'm trying to be vulnerable also on social media. The stories I'm sharing on my social media, I'm hoping is sending hope and what my message is, for example, that we should have our safe spaces. We shouldn't be vulnerable everywhere. We shouldn't come into the office and share all our private problems to everyone. That's oversharing. But we need to I think of who are the people I believe I can trust in the world. Do I have a few close friends? Do I have a few colleagues? Do I have some people in my network in some of the clubs and associations who I can trust? And then take those relationship and a little bit deeper having some more meaningful conversations and that's where I see we can have social health which I believe is a very important pillar and we are social animals. We shouldn't reject it.

Richard Zwicky: We shouldn't reject it. We should embrace it. And I think the stats show that 50% of adults don't have a close friend they can talk to. And that's horrific. And if you're wondering about that, anybody's wondering about that stat, just look to the right and look to the left, you've got, between the two of you are probably suffering. And that's horrific. And that happens also, you touched on earlier about how people are climbing the corporate ladder, and they're competing and they become more isolated. Why does success deepen loneliness instead of relieving it? Why? Why is it that people as they become more successful don't build a group around them to support each other? Because I know from experience you build a team based on people who are stronger than yourself so that you all succeed together but you learn from each other. So many don't work that way. Why is that?

Nick Jonsson: I believe success and if we talk about the corporate world that perhaps means moving up higher in the corporate world, Higher layers that comes with more responsibility. It comes with a package and so More responsibility might mean that you're working across two or three time zones. So you might be on calls for 14 16 hours a day. Many of my coaching clients are on calls across three time zones. So where do you then have time for any human connection? If you're on calls from 7:00 in the morning to midnight basically across time zones, yes, you might work 8 10 hours in the office and the rest of the calls are at home. So you squeeze in a half an hour dinner with your family and then you're on calls again. How can you fit in some friendships in that kind of environment? So that's the challenge I see. And also the more you achieved, the more you have to lose. And then comes that fear, right? And there's less roles at the higher level. It's tough for perhaps someone for who's a very senior executive to find a new role and especially what's going on in the world now. We see all these layoffs and so on and people increasingly at the moment look after themselves. They have a family to feed. So therefore we are sadly becoming more selfish and rightly so because we have to look after ourselves. It come back to basic need and security. So I think we find ourselves in a very difficult situation sadly at the moment.

Richard Zwicky: And that corporate behavior translates for so many people into their personal lives as well They become isolated from the other families at their kids' schools. All of that keeps building. How do we show people how to mitigate That

Nick Jonsson: We need to really have a look at ourselves and it's almost like taking an audit of ourselves and really talk through these things with someone we can trust. As you said, most people don't even have someone they can trust. But then the question is maybe I should get a coach or a therapist or someone who I can talk this through in a confidential manner. And I found actually that once people are in these conversations, they start to trust and they start to open up and then all it takes is one or two sessions and they have voiced out how the situation looks like. Then many times that's all that is needed because something happens when we voice it. It's a bit of ownership in that and just listening to yourself and getting some coaching notes after a call. It just sounds ridiculous and then it's just having some intention and changing some of these conversations. And the question is, do I really need to be on all those calls 16 hours? Can I decline perhaps the calls from 7:00 a.m. To 9:00 a.m. Politely putting up my boundaries and saying that by the way in my time zone that is 7 a.m. Just to be aware? Many times we are just yes there that we just accept everything right, left and center. And that leads to burnout and that leads to what we're talking about today, isolation and loneliness at all accounts as well.

Richard Zwicky: It does. And one of the things that happens when people become more lonely and more isolated is they turn to substances to kill that pain. Could loneliness be one, we know people turn to addiction as a result of adverse childhood experiences and unresolved trauma.

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Richard Zwicky: Could loneliness be yet another driver of far more addictions than we acknowledge?

Nick Jonsson: And that was my story as well, Richard. So, We all have our own coping mechanisms. And if I'm looking at my own life, I had controlled alcohol. It was always on the borderline and sometimes it was too much. But I kept it under control when everything was working fine. But as I had left the corporate world and as I filed for a divorce and isolated myself, alcohol became basically my coping mechanism. And the excuse I told myself was I need to go out and socialize. So I go to the bar and it makes sense. So I go to the bar after work. I hang out with people. But in hindsight looking back at that, it was too excessive. I gained a lot of weight. I lost all my healthy habits. You could say I traded my gym membership for bar stool, my healthy diet, fast food and pizza. And my health was spiraling down and that went for two three years until I woke up one day and I would say I reached my own rock bottom and I had to take ownership. I asked for help and I had to join one of those 12step programs and surrendering in there. I haven't had a drink for over eight years now. But that's my story, Rita. But I'm sharing that because it's very common. And the numbers that I have over in Asia is that between 10 to 20% of all senior executives and CEOs are either have an alcohol or drug addiction. So the numbers are quite high.

Richard Zwicky: They are very high and it's always sad to see and it's great that you have congratulations in the eight years it's a important milestone and you touched on something there you'd go to the bar you'd be surrounded by people but none of them were and I'm making this as a global statement, not because you don't control everybody who comes in the bar, but they're the ones who are surrounding you that are creating the atmosphere. They're not close friends. They don't make you feel emotionally safe. What is it that it gives people in that moment that fills that gap temporarily?

Nick Jonsson: It's a very good question What is it that we get from the Interesting enough looking back at now almost a decade into my sobriety the good friends I have didn't come from the bar they were not the people that I met in the bar in that kind of environment the people I met for sports for anxiety for our son's school or something like that right those are the friends that stay so we are looking for something and I think it's an escape from reality and maybe we don't want to have too deep conversations if I'm looking at myself. I was not ready to have a deep conversation. I would leave my office feeling, almost stressed about all the challenges. And rather than seeing someone who I could be open and vulnerable and share it with, I went to the bar to drink, to watch sport on TV, and to talk\*\*, to forget about work, to relax for a while. But of course, all the problems in my life was still there the next morning, plus a hangover on top of that. So what I encourage everyone to do these days and what I do is instead having some safe spaces, some places where we can be vulnerable. May that be a tribe that I do something I love swimming, cycling, running is a big part of my life these days. And I don't just do that alone. I also rejoin swimmies. I have running clubs. I join cycling groups around the world. And therefore I get social connection combined with physical health. And these are the relationship that last.

Richard Zwicky: And it's important to recognize social loneliness and emotionally loneliness are fundamentally different. And people might think I'm not lonely because I am constantly with friends. I have dinner five different nights and I can't just find time to myself. How do people recognize hey, wait a second. I'm emotionally lonely and that's why this isn't feeling right.

Nick Jonsson: We have to ask ourselves that question. You imagine if you're surrounded by your friends and family. Do you feel lonely then? What about in the office? You're surrounded by your colleagues and peers, but do you feel lonely then? And then It probably means that we've lost a bit of connection in ourselves. And it probably means that you haven't been completely authentic and honest and open with those people around you. Because if you would have some open honest conversations with some people around you, then naturally they will be there for you. They will perhaps show some empathy and they will open up as well. And then starts that sort of back and forth dance between us. When we open up more and more, we bring the relationship to a deeper level and then The I loneliness disappears when we have connection. But we have to work it.

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Nick Jonsson: We have to discipline ourselves to have these conversations and to take the relationships a little bit deeper.

Richard Zwicky: And that touches back to something we were talking about earlier which is like with social media people have become really good at managing their personal brands and they put up a facade in a lot of things we talk about masking which is a related phenomenon. It's just masking at global scale. With all of this happening, we've become incredibly good at hiding the very parts of us that create intimacy. But it's a bit of a trap because once you're going down that route, you don't recognize it. How can people take a step back? How can people do a self assessment that's easy and quick and allows them to realize, "Hey, wait a second. I need to look at this further." Because many people say, "Yeah, that's not me." and not realize, wait a second It is you.

Nick Jonsson: I think it comes back to an audit of ourselves and really to look at ourselves in a healthy way and do I have some things that is not serving me well and it's the first step in my new book I'm writing I call it surrender step so in my case then when I went through my divorce and resigned from the job about around a decade ago what were the things that didn't serve me One, I kept secret. I wasn't open. I was lonely. I was isolated. I was overeing. I was drinking too much alcohol. I didn't have any discussions with my ex-wife even about, feelings and emotions and challenges. It was just not something I discussed. I didn't have any male friends, for example, I was open and vulnerable with. Those were all the challenges that I had to address. Everyone else is different. If I do workshops these days or coaching the younger generation, for many of them it would be, yeah, I'm not reading any books because I'm spending my evenings, on Tik Tok or maybe I'm binge watching Netflix until 1:00 a.m. And then I wake up at 6:00 a.m. In the morning because I have to go to work and I'm tired. So people perhaps are losing that kind of self-discipline and maybe to the growth mindset falls out the door because the bad habits turn over. So I think it start by just having an honest look at ourselves and the way I do that as a coach I have an simple self assessment like that I send to everyone and you look on it's called a wheel of life in coaching right and you look at all the eight areas of your life and you judge yourself where are you currently on a scale of one to 10 and then to have someone to talk that through it's quite eye openening to see this is where I am at the moment

Richard Zwicky: That's incredibly valuable and I know in my book which is I'm the only normal person in my universe. There's a few questionnaires and one of them deals with attachments and avoidance. And it's one of the clues is if you answer no, you're really answering yes in some ways. And that's important for people to recognize. But as we go, something as we're talking about, our children are surrounded by parents who are performing, And they see them not just performing in terms of somebody shows up at the house and they clean up and they tidy it up differently than it would be otherwise, but they see it in everything they're posting and they're going, "I was there and I don't remember any of this." but they grow up believing that love and validation depends on performance and achievement and never becoming a burden. What does that do to them as adults? What are we looking at 10 years from now?

Nick Jonsson: I think you're absolutely right that we live in a world where performance is there. And I can remember even growing up as a young boy and I remember looking at the neighbor's driveway. And if we had a newer car, I would be proud as a child, I'm wondering how was that installed in me, 40 45 years ago. And I think that's a global phenomenon. But these days, it's about social media. Now we even have AI. We can fake things and we can look as good as we want to. And if that's what our children see that, this is how the parents are behaving and showing off on social media. And as you said, it might not be the full truth. I know of some people who completely spin what is happening and maybe faking things the way we looked and everything else. That's really scary. And I talk about one gentleman in my book and I actually dedicated my executive loneliness book to him because sadly he's no longer with us. He died of suicide in 2019 and he had just posted on social media photos of him and his girlfriend and said that he's never been happier. He had just come back from Mount Everest where he climbed to the base camp and I followed his Facebook group for about a month or two and everything looked like the perfect life.

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Nick Jonsson: So what is it that if people are seeing and then suddenly this person end their own life it's really hard to put any words to Richard what is happening then and how and we always so surprised when it happens right so it's like someone is building this perfect image this perfect picture but behind the scene they are completely lonely and lost.

Richard Zwicky: And it's horrible and I think a lot of people remember Anthony Bourdain as well and people thought he was incredibly successful. He was authentic, traveling around the world, but speaking his mind, doing things. And he turned around after, making a number of very positive posts and apparently recording an amazing show and killed himself. And we don't know what's going on underneath the surface. And being able to show and present is one thing, but being vulnerable is something we need to practice. And it's something we need to practice today. Because we don't know when we're going to need it in the future in a very bad way. And vulnerability is something our nervous system must learn is safe. What are some small ways people can start that today?

Nick Jonsson: It's my favorite question And I love it so much. And remember what I shared earlier today that I have this men's community and we practice vulnerability in a small positive way early every morning. Everyone check in and share something they're grateful for. It can be as simple as they had a home cooked meal with a wife the night before. Maybe they went for a walk with a son or maybe something like that or a fresh cup of coffee or something just to check in to be grateful for something. And that's being vulnerable and just to practice that vulnerability muscle to get more comfortable with that. But even when I'm giving my keynotes and workshops, I typically start each session with this moment and I'm sharing something I'm grateful for. Then I'm asking the audience now think through something you are grateful for today. And then after they've been thinking, I said, turn to your partner sitting next to you now and share what you're grateful for. Because that's an easy and positive way to start being vulnerable, to start sharing something. And we can create this culture in our family, in our community and at work as well by being vulnerable about some of the positive things. And also if there's a leader and this goes for a family in the office. If we make a mistake that's a perfect opportunity to own that and be vulnerable about it and say what we can learn about it because if we do that then others will feel safe around us. When they make a mistake of course we all do, then they will own it and they can share what they learned from that rather than that we have this blame culture.

Richard Zwicky: And in leadership circles we celebrate resilience being able to withstand the difficulties. And interesting enough also the behavior that comes out of it is common with avoidance. People have challenges and that demand for self-sufficiency and autonomy. But there's a point at which resilience really becomes emotional self-abandonment where we don't no longer recognize that being so resilient and so self-sufficient, so autonomous, we actually lose it because autonomy is the ability to choose to engage and participate with others. How do you help people overcome that false insight?

Nick Jonsson: I think again it's a wonderful question Richard and just being resilient for the resilience place just keep being knocked over all the time and rising again that can really be a negative path to be on because we need also time to perhaps there could be grief there perhaps there could be some trauma and we need to reflect on that so that we grow from it we don't just grind a white knuckle through it and I can talk about recovery again from alcohol if you think of alcoholism for example there are two ways to deal with that you have the people who are dry and being dry that means that you're not drinking alcohol but you're sort of white knuckling yourself you're just sitting there you're not drinking on it what happens eventually Then something happens in your life, relapse happen. Another path is okay, I going to stop drinking alcohol. And then we're working with someone, we're having some conversation, we join a community where we discuss how we feel about it. We express our feelings and emotions around it. Then we are growing through it and that is sobbriety. So we can apply that to everything we go through in life. It doesn't matter what it is we're going through. So it's this either we grow through it or we sort of almost white knuckle us through it.

Richard Zwicky: And white knuckling us through it is really us avoiding the discomfort that intimacy requires and

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Richard Zwicky: Brings. But It's not pain, no gain. It's actually the opposite, across and we're running out of time so I want to make sure we catch last couple of bits but across every guest we've interviewed whether discussing trauma depression burnout addiction the word connection keeps coming up and it's spoken about differently but at the end of the day it's an underlying issue that touches everybody in ways that we're not paying enough attention to and I don't know if we're also not paying enough attention in self-help And it is addressed in therapy, but it isn't always addressed in everything else in the same way. And is it ultimately less about fixing ourselves and more about healing relationships where we no longer have to perform

Nick Jonsson: I think the topic of loneliness you're right, is not discussed as much as it should. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding and stigma and shame associated with it. And then the question is How dangerous it is? And therefore people might not be able to put a finger on it and sadly if it's unressed then the cases that we discussed today suicide lies at the end of it and that eventually where things will lead if we don't address it so in that sense I think we need to create these safe spaces we need to be proactive in having this conversation to address it in the good times so that we are ready for the bad times and that's also what you mentioned earlier Richard we need to be proactively having these conversations which is what you ultimately doing today and the conversation we have today and I think in that regard if there's anyone who's listening who have that kind of feelings and thoughts internally then the only question is think is there someone in my life who I can be a bit vulnerable with is it someone I can have an honest conversation with and what we learned also here Richard is right we don't need too many people we need one or two perhaps three people who we can trust who we can speak with and then just to offload that and release what is inside us that is I believe is the next call for each other.

Richard Zwicky: It is incredibly important to build maintain and have that circle of very close friends who can turn to you and you can turn to. It's not always the same people, that's an important part. Not everybody who will receive will also be able to give and that's okay. Looking back, what belief about yourself had to die before genuine connection became possible as you went through burnout, addiction, and everything else.

Nick Jonsson: I would say it's almost like I'm in my second life now, and before I was that kind of white knuckling person, I didn't ask for help and alcohol was sort of an issue that I controlled. I didn't yet ask for any help about it and it was a very tough existence because that means that you're constantly anxious, tense. I didn't have the healthy coping mechanisms I have today. So, I think the biggest change in my life was surrendering alcohol. And for anyone else who's listening, it might be something else. It can be anything from gambling, gaming, drugs even p\*\*\* addiction is big as well. And if someone is listening and recognize that there is an issue, the good thing that help is there. And a lot of it is proono as well. You have a wonderful recovery communities out there.

Richard Zwicky: You do people anybody who's faced any of the challenges around addiction or mental health generally is open to helping others because we recognize what it takes. Nick, people who do want to, reach out to you to learn more to find out how they can embark down their path or even to ask about how they can help a friend, colleague or loved one. How can they reach out? Wonderful.

Nick Jonsson: So, I'm quite active on LinkedIn, so they can find me there. Or I have a website and it's nick johnson.com and it's spelled n i c k j o n ss n.com.

Richard Zwicky: Nick, thanks so much for joining us today on High on Healthy. This has been a fascinating conversation.

Nick Jonsson: Thank you so much, Richard.

Richard Zwicky: And thanks to everybody for listening. I'm Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy and we'll be back again with you soon.