Beyond Partner-Blaming: How to Break Repeating Relationship Patterns

Richard Zwicky: Hi everyone, it's Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy, the show where we know there's no one path to healthy, so we explore them one thing that we all do is we have a consistency about repeating the same relationship patterns. We walk out of a relationship and we think, what could we have done different or why didn't it work and then we get into the next one and we tend to repeat the same patterns. And we enter relationships because we're hoping to be loved because we think that relationships are going to fulfill us. And many of them do. But is it possible that relationships exist for a different reason entirely? Not to make us happy, but to make us conscious. And the strongest answer to this question will likely emerge when we shift from partner blaming about why a relationship didn't work towards self-confrontation. And that's where today's guest, Wendy Dumbroof's experience and background really come in and intersect. Wendy's a couple's sex therapist, family therapist, and mindfulness teacher. Welcome aboard the show, So Wendy,

Wendi Dumbroff: Thank you Thanks for having me so much.

Richard Zwicky: Most people think that their relationship problems are caused by the person sitting across from them. It's the wrong partner. It's poor communication. It's different values. It's different needs. But what if many of the struggles we experienced in love and relationships as a whole existed before that relationship began? How do we help people see in the mirror?

Wendi Dumbroff: It's such an insightful point that you bring up and one of the first things I always tell couples is, when people come in and they're doing fix the other, it's not going to work. I look at everything circularly and really every dynamic is created. So yes, there are interactions between people that happen that are not useful and there's also our own stuff. So as much as we are saying okay let's say a heterosexual couple and she says he gets loud and when he gets loud and critical I get very triggered and I get loud louder right and so then they build this the question is what happens to them what are the triggers that make each one loud in the first place what gets them going so yeah it's important to look at that dynamic, how it's cocreated and what happens circularly and for each person to turn in and say, what's happening for me in this moment? Why am I so triggered right now?" when he gets loud, he sounds like my alcoholic father. And the only way that I could be heard when I was a child was to scream louder and louder. And so I get loud, too. And then when she gets loud, it feels like his chaotic past and he gets louder. He feels like maybe he can't do anything So he gets more and more critical. And the more and more critical he gets, the more she gets triggered and gets louder and the more and the louder she gets, the more he gets. So it's what happens in the co-creation from their histories, their families of origin or significant things that occurred in their adult life. Perhaps it's not always in the family of origin and How do they change that interaction? And a lot of that is that turning in because if you can create space between when you feel triggered and first you have to know that you're triggered to begin with and what you do. You can change that created dynamic.

Richard Zwicky: You can and it's funny you're speaking about I just published a book which is entitled I'm the only normal person in my universe and effectively you're describing that situation but you touched onto something else which is you said take a look at people circularly and I have a great uncle who's a physicist and he used to say people are spherical bastards no matter which way you look at them they're the same and it ties really in an interesting way to what are saying that those things being true we live in our own reality we see things from our own normal we don't understand them from everybody else is but people keep choosing the same relationship in different packages

Wendi Dumbroff: This is a debated among therapists.

Richard Zwicky: Why?

Wendi Dumbroff: I remember when I was training working in an agency having a discussion about this and there's different theories on this. Often what's familiar is comfortable even

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Wendi Dumbroff: If it's uncomfortably comfortable. There's one theory that says everything we do is repair is an attempt at repair. And so if someone had that very critical parent and they married someone who's very critical, It's that attempt at repair or they had the parent they couldn't get the attention of and they married someone who just shuts down all the time. It said that it's an attempt at repair or it's familiar. Why would a person who flees their home as soon as they can at age 18 and never goes back to escape an alcoholic environment marry someone who overdrinks or is an alcoholic, right? What's familiar is comfortable. It's known even if it's uncomfortably comfortable. And there's could be the attempt at repair. Yeah. Yes.

Richard Zwicky: You're trying to fix the person you're with because you couldn't fix the parent who raised you.

Wendi Dumbroff: Uncon none of that is conscious by the way.

Richard Zwicky: No, it's not.

Wendi Dumbroff: Unconscious processes or you're still trying to fix the alcoholic parent, And you're doing it. You see in front of you this is my partner here and unconsciously it is the parent and that's what happens a lot of times in arguments right so if somebody becomes critical and this person too is very triggered by critical talk or being criticized because they had a parent that was very critical there may be no even awareness that's why they're so triggered. But when something has a lot of charge to it, a lot of veilance, something really gets us for some people, somebody who criticized us, nobody likes to be criticized, but they may be able to take that in a different way rather than become reactive, whatever their reactivity looks like, whether it's getting louder or shutting down. But if they have that history of always being criticized, the mind and body remember that and so it's more powerful for them. It's got more charge and they're more reactive to that. They're more triggered by that. And so for so I forgot what your initial question was there.

Richard Zwicky: It's just about we were talking about how people sometimes repair or try to repair what happened with their parents or what their parents couldn't do. But something you touched on there I'll shift to is you touched almost on the question of chemistry. And people think, I really click with this person. I have amazing chemistry. There's a charge in the air when we're together. But sometimes that's a warning sign. How do we learn to differentiate that? So before we go too Yep. Mhm.

Wendi Dumbroff: Good question. So just to clarify what I meant by charged was when somebody that person is critical and they've got the history of the parent who's critical. So that trigger has a lot of charge to it. Not because it's a good thing there. Chemistry is something I think a little bit different but I understand the question that you have. So just to clarify and build on that. So that's kind of what I meant. So really just knowing, wow, I feel really triggered right now. Not in a good way because this person is familiar to me because wow, yeah, they've got this or this and maybe they've got good qualities that they remember from a parent or they just like something who knows what creates chemistry, that attracted to each other maybe.

Richard Zwicky: Wendy, we blanked out there for about 30 seconds. So, right when you said, "Who knows what creates chemistry?" Let's just take 5 second pause and then we should go back and just think about what you're saying and we'll start with who knows what creates chemistry and we'll cut back in. But let's take five.

Wendi Dumbroff: So, who knows what creates chemistry? It's an area to be explored, but that feeling when you just feel so connected, likeminded at one with the other. Maybe there's that sexual attraction that's really intense as well.

Richard Zwicky: It is. And then sometimes that chemistry is also a red flag. By the same token, a lot of avoidance reference the fact that the feelings just go, which they go think, it's something's gone wrong, something's gone boring. But sometimes that's really a person's behavior shaped by the unpredictability of what happened to them as a child and

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Richard Zwicky: Now they're in a secure relationship and they can't understand it because it feels boring. How often do you come across that where people are just like, "I don't know what happened, but everything's gone. I want to get it back." And getting it back would actually be torture.

Wendi Dumbroff: What's interesting what you said about it's boring. Sometimes people will choose the boring relationship because they had so much conflict and chaos in an relationship so they go the other way, but then they're missing some spice. Or sometimes they are thrilled by the animation of the relationship and how intense and sparkly it is. But then there's this other side that's really dark and people are striving to get that, back to that. That's what I see more than it just being ex the nor Exciting at first that period of lirance and infatuation where everything is just new and then it drops down. That really happens for everyone to an extent. They haven't bottled yet the way to hold on to that initial new relationship energy I guess you could call it or is one of the terms these days. So to get that back, that's part of the work of the coup's therapy in general, to reconnect, to change whatever unuseful cycles the couple is in to something more useful by helping them to turn in, by connecting their past to their present, by creating empathy also for each other and knowing, wait a minute, so my partner gets really triggered when I get really loud. Or my partner gets triggered when I shut down and disappear. I kind of need to shift that too. I need to be able to stay more present. Hey, but I can only stay present when you calm down. Okay, I'll calm down. Knowing that triggers each other. And sometimes that empathy and recognizing, hey, my partner cares for me. They're doing this for me. They're here and doing this work because they care about me and they want to make changes. Wow. Yeah.

Richard Zwicky: And that leads me to the point where they want to make the relationship work, but a lot of people struggle with asking their partner for what they really want in a direct way. And it should be their safe zone. They can talk about anything, but because of prior history, they just don't feel comfortable being that open. What's the most common thing that people really desperately want that they can't ask for?

Wendi Dumbroff: I two answers to that. In one context when people have had real trauma in their history, and their voices were unable to be heard and they may have trouble asking for the simplest things, the other day, I felt really hurt when you said X, Y, or Z. And so's And that's usually with severe trauma. Sometimes, interestingly, when you ask somebody, what do you think you need in that moment? They actually don't know. Think about that. I'm not sure. And I think one of the hardest things for people to ask for is what they want sexually. There's still such taboo around sex. I have couples that come in have been married for decades, but they tell me, we never really talk about sex. We don't really talk about what we like. I'm not really fulfilled in our interactions most of the time. So that's a big area where people have trouble.

Richard Zwicky: And sex is intimate but intimacy isn't just sex. How much confusion is that around that where people don't recognize when they're not asking for what they want or need sexually, they're also not asking saying where they're lacking in intimacy as an emotional state.

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Wendi Dumbroff: So, I'm going to be very heterosexist here. In that often with women, they will say, and not by any means always, because I often hear this from men too, women want that emotional connection outside. Talk to me. Tell me about what happened in your day. Tell me that you love me. Hold the door open for me. Just be affectionate with me. Ug me. Hold my hand. Tell me you love what I was talking about at dinner with our friends. Tell me personal things about how re Listen to me when I'm want to talk about how I'm feeling. And for men, often the way they feel emotionally close is through physical contact. And sometimes I think it's a wonder men and women ever get together when you have that kind of dynamic. But again, it is a created dynamic. And how do you listen to each other and have more of what each person needs to begin to come closer?

Richard Zwicky: And it's an interesting point men for men the gateway to emotional intimacy is through sexual intimacy. Most men seem to require that before they allow themselves or are able to engage emotionally at a deeper level. Whereas women's the inverse that you were just saying. What is it about our upbringing or is it something else that makes it that way? Is it different in our western culture and our North American culture than it is elsewhere? Right?

Wendi Dumbroff: That's a good question. I'm not an expert on cultures worldwide. Just thinking about clients that I've had of different nationalities I think that and it's a generalization because as I said it is not nearly what you hear all the time. What creates it. There's a Mars Venus thing there that maybe it's in some of that, but I think there's other aspects that it's also how men are socialized, how Women are socialized. It's okay to be close. It's okay to cry. So women and their girlfriends talk and talk and men, I'll share a personal story. My husband used to go fly fishing with this friend of his and after about a year of fly fishing where you're standing in dead silence, he said, "Boy, his friend really opened up to him today and told him a lot of personal things." And I looked at him like he had three heads because I said, "You've been fishing with him for a year. If that was two women, we would have known every single thing about each other in the first hour and probably said, "Let's forget the fishing and go do something else." Right? So what is it? I don't know. But I can say that oftentimes when someone has grown up in an environment and I guess I do find this more with men where they're not paid attention to. They're kind of on their own. And the only way they really learned to feel intimacy is when they started experiencing sexual intimacy as they got older. And so that became what was known to them as intimacy as well. Mhm.

Richard Zwicky: It takes a lot longer for men to open up about their feelings because the peer pressure, the bullying that occurs if you open up is strong, especially through the teenage years. Whereas for girls, it's expected. And so they're trained right from the start about how to behave differently. But once you're in a relationship, there's the aspects about being mindful about what's going on and being able to observe and notice things. But if only one person is doing that, can that person transform the relationship without their partner making changes?

Wendi Dumbroff: I will not it's not a clear no. Yes. If one person makes changes there can be changes in the relationship. I use a specific model that is circular literally draw it out for people. But that person also has to ask for what they need. They would have to say hey can you stop yelling so loud? It's really hard for me. And the other person has to be open and willing to hear. And often times they don't understand or if they're not doing the work it's not as available to them.

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Richard Zwicky: And it's not and it makes it more difficult which also leads us to infidelity because one of the most painful relationship experiences is betrayal and

Wendi Dumbroff: You mean in general

Richard Zwicky: Betrayal can come in many forms but the most common one that people look at is infidelity. Do you see a lot of people who come through your office who are dealing with that? What do most people misunderstand about why infidelity happens?

Wendi Dumbroff: Why do most people misunderstand that? Not Yeah.

Richard Zwicky: Because we can say, " this person, they cheated and that's the betrayal." But there's underneath that it's like layers in an onion. There's what's the most common things that people don't recognize and then really should step back and go okay maybe we should look at this a little differently Right.

Wendi Dumbroff: As you said, I've worked with many couples where there's been infidelity. And what I always also say to people, no matter what they've done, is that people have really good reasons for what they do, it doesn't mean it's useful. Let's take for example a couple that is, as we were just talking about, one person needs emotional connection, the other person needs physical connection. They're in this cycle where neither is getting what they want and they've circled in their own orbits. Then suddenly this person meets someone in their work environment or they're somewhere their club they belong to or randomly they meet someone or they go looking for something because that need is not being met there or it happens just by chance because not everybody goes looking for it. Suddenly they're getting something that they need that they were not able to have here or somebody's coping strategy is to shut down. So they shut So there's this really unuseful cycle where one is pursuing the other's The more they shut down, the more they pursue because they're both being triggered by things from long ago, and don't know how to change that cycle. So eventually they shut down into so far away they found something else. Usually often it can point to something within the relationship that's a cycle that's not useful. That's really where I go from. What's happening between people that's not working. Not that it's ever a good choice to do that in a monogous relationship. It's never a good choice to break the boundaries of the relationship. Even if that's an open relationship, if you're breaking the boundaries of that, it's still an infidelity, And so, it's never a good choice. And I have to be careful with that when I work with people because you have one person who might be so hurt and so devastated. And I'm here saying, " let's understand how this happened, right? And not that it was okay, not that it was an okay choice to make. How and if they're wanting to fix it, and usually if they come to me often, I won't say always, but sometimes people come and they've got one foot out the door and they just want to maybe leave their partner with someone to talk to or they just want to say they made an attempt and they already know they're leaving. But often times people do want to fix it.

Richard Zwicky: Understandable. And also part of

Wendi Dumbroff: Most of the time I would say that can be a big part of it.

Richard Zwicky: What you're describing is a lot of times people are unfaithful or have entered into infidelity because they're confusing being loved with being validated and they don't feel validated in their existing relationship and they're searching for something to help them feel Is that what you're saying?

Wendi Dumbroff: They feel if there's someone who is triggered by feeling like they could never do anything right and their partner is always saying, "Gee, I wish you why don't you do this or why didn't you hear me?" And they find someone in that new relationship energy that just thinks they are, the best thing ever. I mean,

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Wendi Dumbroff: But Affairs are going to the greatest party you've ever gone to. You just have so much fun going to, Disney World. And there's also not the reality of raising children and paying bills and your parents, my parents, family someone doesn't like or get along with

Richard Zwicky: And I mean the extended family brings in all sorts of dynamics and they can meddle subconsciously even by just making comments or dropping or doing things which creates friction between the partners not because of ill will but because they don't really understand their impact. And that is a huge additional challenge. But is that also tie back to comment earlier about sometimes people they never learned how to tolerate being fully seen and what you're talking about is that extended group exposes them in ways that people feel uncomfortable and then they withdraw. And how do you help them work through that?

Wendi Dumbroff: When it comes to family and extended family, parents, in-laws, that's where boundaries become really, really important.

Richard Zwicky: Then.

Wendi Dumbroff: A couple has to prioritize each other. I have a married son. If I'm doing something that's upsetting his dynamic I want him to come tell me that because I don't want to do that. And it's his job to do that with me, my husband, it's his job to come to us if we're doing something that upsets his wife. And he needs to prioritize his wife and his child. And yeah, that's a boundary that needs to be set. And often times partners are unwilling because of history or they don't know how or they never could set a boundary with if a parent is too invasive and they just are in there too much in their business, I've heard things even to the extent where they're getting involved with what are you going to name your child? No, you can't name your child that. I don't like that. So, a lot of times now people don't even tell anybody the name until the child is born, which I think is actually a good idea. So nobody can have any comments. Then the baby's there and this is who it is.

Richard Zwicky: I agree there. I know we're running low on time but there are a couple of things I did want to touch on before that just, several guests on the show previously have argued that healing and I think it's pretty much universal requires confronting parts of ourselves, not just our history, but parts of ourselves that we'd rather avoid. Now, those parts have been shaped by our history usually, but relationships, especially when there's something going a miss, are incredibly effective at exposing wounds that we're not ready to see or haven't fully healed. How often do you see people coming in and you realize that's what's going on and you have to help them manage around that type of an issue because it's one that either or both partners aren't ready to recognize.

Wendi Dumbroff: That's a great question. That is such a deep part of the work and you have to be with people at their pace. And you're right, there's very often really hard to maybe go to that wounded part that never had a voice that is trying to learn how to bring that voice out to recognize that the anger is really this bandage over the wound of the helplessness un feeling of not being loved or cared and so anger was okay but vulnerability wasn't that anger is almost always covering over something more vulnerable and so helping people to slowly connect to that and you use a good word you talk about parts I've actually just done the level one training in internal family systems which is all about our different parts so literally helping people to get to know these parts. There may be lots of other parts protecting a part that you have layers that you have to go through before you can even get to a part to talk to it. And they're often stuck in the past, They're often much younger and stuck in the past. And they may not even know us our self.

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Wendi Dumbroff: And you need to create a relationship with them and help them to know that you're not there anymore. It's okay to talk now. You have a partner that wants to hear you and listen to you.

Richard Zwicky: And that's key is that you get to the point of trust where the partner wants to hear you sometimes. And that's where some people hold. Sorry, I had a siren running loud in the background just going by. And I'll just,

Wendi Dumbroff: No worries.

Richard Zwicky: And that challenge is something where a lot of people struggle in relationships because again, when they have that wound and something is going a miss, they feel less and less safe and less and less trusting. And it's the time to step forward and ask for help and to seek not just the help of their partner because they're in the moment of not trust but speaking with somebody professionally such as yourself and recognizing that we are low on time. How do people who are in that situation how can they reach out to you? Where do you work with people?

Wendi Dumbroff: Thank I'm in New Jersey, so I'm licensed in New Jersey, so I can really only work with people in New Jersey. If they're in my office. I do a combination of hybrid and I have an office in Madison, New Jersey. And my website is Dumbroof theapy.com. Wendy with an Thank you so much for having me,

Richard Zwicky: One Wendy with an I. That's all thanks so much for joining us today on High on Healthy, Wendy.

Wendi Dumbroff: I really appreciate it.

Richard Zwicky: And thanks to everybody for listening. I'm Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy and we'll be back again with you soon.