Reclaiming Focus in the Attention Economy

Richard Zwicky: Hi everyone, it's Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy, the show where we know there's no one path to healthy, so we explore them all. It's common for people to dismiss day-to-day issues as I just have ADHD or sometimes something even more challenging, and we use these terms as a general catchall. But we really do need to look a little bit deeper in many different areas and in ways which we haven't considered before. What's happening in our minds and our focus in the modern economy where our brains are already struggling with attention and the tools we use to connect with others are operating in a world that's designed to divert our attention which means to play right into the challenges that so many of us face. And let's face it, if not all of us, have already caught ourselves at some point doom scrolling, searching forever, just getting lost and going down tracks and thinking, "How did I get here?" And then we look at others and, we see our family members talking about their own attention problems and as if it's a personal discipline problem. Why can't you just focus? Why are you wasting your time this way? Why can't you put your phone down? And we don't stop to think about the causes, which is really what's the environment around us creating and engineering to make sustained attention more difficult. Joining us today for a conversation about this topic, we have Emily Lamemens Washkovich, who is a podcast host and mental health advocate who speaks candidly about what focus actually feels like from inside a brain that is wired against it. Welcome to the show, Emily. So,

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: Thanks so much for having me.

Richard Zwicky: In looking at your work, you often describe attention as something that you have to negotiate with rather than simply possess. What does that feel like?

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: I think everyone whether they have a neurodeiverse brain like myself or has these moments throughout the day where our attention is called. And sometimes it's a little thing like maybe you hear your dog giving you that sound that the bowl needs more water or maybe it's a bigger thing like an email that comes through or a message you get about work. And think for me, I lived many years not thinking at all about how my attention was constantly divided, or pulled in different directions. And it wasn't until I had my mental health episode and received my diagnosis and started learning more about how my brain worked that I realized sometimes I was allowing myself to create a sense of more split attention. And the biggest thing I learned in treatment about how I function every day is that we all think we can multitask, but it really does diminish our ability to close the loop or finish a task. And so I now in my day-to-day life try to be mindful of when I'm focusing my attention. And I try to prevent it from being pulled in another direction without me opting into that. Really being mindful if I'm in a meeting or an interview that I'm not looking at an email or reading a message that comes through. And I think it takes a lot of practice for us as humans to try to stop that distraction. And it also sometimes creates stress and we get on ourselves thinking why am I like this way or why can't I just focus and that's often counterproductive.

Richard Zwicky: It cuts into self-lame which is a form of shame and there really is no shame involved. It's just our brain works differently and we either haven't learned to manage it in the way that others expect us to or in the way we need to in that moment and I know that from the inside as well in my own way but you mentioned I've having to do this focus did your understanding of the attention economy shift due to your career because you watch technology evolve to grab people's attention. And how did that affect you as an individual who realized, hey, wait a sec. This is actually happening to me. And I didn't realize I'm doing it to others.

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: I think the biggest thing that I recognized is a lot of the technology we use today as more of a passive or as a hobby is really created to keep us on the app or to keep us engaged with the platform. And you'll notice this in AI tools and LLMs as well, right? If you ask Chatubt or Claude a question, they don't just answer the question, they ask you if you wanted to do another task at the end. And I think that's what we're sometimes not even realizing we're doing to ourselves. So, let's say, for example, we're getting on social media. If we're not mindful at all of what time it is or how long we want to spend on this platform, it is really created in a way that sucks us in. When you're watching something or looking at something, you're not getting any sort of acknowledgement or alert when a certain amount of time has passed. And so, as humans, we have to recognize that the tech that's in our pocket and in our hands is built to try to keep us using that piece of technology or that app or that platform.

00:05:00

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: And so for me, I had to start really setting honestly time frames for when I would be able to use some of these different platforms. And sometimes it's short time frames like limiting how long you're on a social media app, but sometimes it's about creating focus on one app or platform for a longer period of time. And we often in today's society are using apps or platforms that have a cycle or a loop to keep us in that platform. And I like to try to make sure that I'm being mindful of when I'm going in or out of using a platform so that I'm not getting sucked into this time warp. One other thing I want to briefly mention on this is a lot of the apps that we use frequently, we're not thinking about the emotional relationship we have to them. So let's take Tik Tok or Instagram. You might watch some videos and you're feeling happy, euphoric, maybe you're even learning something. But then in that same scrolling period, you might be seeing some distressing news, things that are happening around the world. And we don't realize that when we're going through those emotional highs and lows and then we try to hop into a new task, we're still going to feel some of that residual emotion. And so being that you're not getting into that loop and scrolling or doom scrolling too long can help manage that.

Richard Zwicky: And it's quite interesting where we can create different forms of discipline around that. As you were speaking I was thinking a friend of mine she installed this little device in her home and she puts her phone up to it when she starts work and it bricks her PE can receive phone calls and that's it. And she doesn't get the interruptions from social media. She doesn't get the interruptions from anything that isn't critical. It just locks everything else out. And she physically has to get up and walk and go to that device to unlock her phone. Again, that has increased her discipline and efficiency. It works marvelously for her. Doesn't mean it's going to work for everybody. And we often frame distraction as a failure of discipline, but It's not really even poor self-control. It's a difference in interaction in individual neurobiology. When you worked in your areas, it was engineering to exploit that attention. How did you manage around that? What did you look for? Yep.

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: I mean, I think gauging your emotional response is really important. So, with Yelp as an example, as a business owner, it's important to be aware of what's happening on your Yelp page. But for some people, if they're getting those constant live alerts, that's more stressful or distracting. And so, you do really need to kind of go a layer below standard settings and create your own settings. What works for how you function. Would you rather get one email a day that outlines all of the alerts? Would you rather get it even less frequently? And I think what we need to remember is these platforms are normally going to be built in a way that keeps us engaged or on them. And we have to manually turn that off, right? We have to change what the setting is to better align with how we function. And I think that's even important for apps like Slack or your email. I have certain email accounts of mine where I want to open that profile before I see the number of notifications. And that's a setting I had to create on my own. Google would love me to know at all times how many new emails have come in during this interview as an example. But that is going to distract me. And so I've had to change my settings so that I don't see that at a time that is not good for my emotional bandwidth. And I think the other thing to keep in mind is there are benefits to these apps or platforms. And so sometimes I think our fear kicks us all the way into maybe not using them or creating a strict boundary. And really it can sometimes be better to just curate it for your preferences. I think another thing is for me personally having all my connection be through technology is always going to kind of feel like it's on this almost like false plane. I need to have human connection outside of my digital interactions. And so I have to create that on my own. I have to set time to meet with people and really dig into how I'm feeling or how I'm using different technologies.

00:10:00

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: And so I do think it takes some awareness and some I want to say the cognition that these apps are built to create an attentiongrabbing experience and just being mindful of that to work against Okay.

Richard Zwicky: And I mean the apps are built to do that. So, I mean, everything on the web is built to grab your attention because it's advertising driven allows it to be free to most users and the behavioral targeting systems that drive that are incredibly effective. Now taking a step back a few years ago or not too recently but few years ago you were diagnosed with ADHD and how did that help you reinterpret your behavior through a new lens and what is that how does somebody who's struggling with some of these things all of a sudden realize no this is as a result of this and this is how I actually can manage it's a manageable thing and being ADHD just means you're wired differently doesn't mean Mhm.

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: And to be honest I didn't receive my diagnosis till much later in life. And I was at this crossroads at work where I could just feel things were not going I was dropping the ball, forgetting things. Very abnormal pro experience for me. And I asked some co-workers. I said, I'm not feeling good. I feel like I'm irritable. I feel like I've been kind of dropping the ball. Is there anything that you've noticed? And they said, yeah, we feel like your attention is split. Sometimes we're in meetings and it feels like you're not even engaged or know what's happening in the moment. And so I went to my psychiatrist who already worked with me for my bipolar disorder and I started explaining what was happening and she said, yes, Emily, you have ADHD and I didn't know when I should maybe tell you because you seem to be doing well and functioning well." And I think that's important for all of us to remember. Sometimes we're living with these things that are different about how we function or how our brain works. And oftentimes learning about them can be a little unsettling at first, but if you realize that you've been living this way your whole life and successful in certain things that you've achieved, I think that really helps. And so for me, I learned what was really causing my ADHD to go into overdrive and create these bad symptoms that were impacting my work. And a lot of it was structure and it was also emotional bandwidth and regulation. So by getting all of these stimuli throughout the day and not actively managing when I wanted to engage or having a system for keeping track of things, I was really constantly ebbing and flowing between feeling dialed in and I was getting a lot done and feeling like I did not have any of the motivation to attack my to-do list. And when I learned about how the ADHD brain works, I realized that in my circumstance I was doing a huge disservice to myself by not having a structure to my day and not having really rigid systems to how I do some things. And so now, one of my non-negotiables is to always have my morning routine before I dive into my email or before I get started with my day. That includes, having a smoothie, walking my dogs, really trusting that the first thing I do in the morning does not need to be checking my email. And that has helped my ADHD actually balance better. I thought that I needed to be looking at that stuff at all times to stay on top of it, but really that was fragmenting my attention. And if I'm able to start my day with my own filling of my cup, I can focus so much better once I get started. The other thing I learned about my particular ADHD and executive function is I really need external accountability. So, I have to set deadlines for myself and I need to verbalize them to my partners my co-workers because I will never miss a deadline that's been verbalized. But if a deadline has flexibility, you better believe I'm going to take every last minute.

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Richard Zwicky: And in my book I refer to those as now and not now. It's not due right now. It's not It doesn't matter.

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: I have read your perspective on that and I find that it's so fascinating when you're not analyzing how your brain works. You're just kind of doing stuff and you're not really thinking about why behind it. But when you read a little bit more about how this might present in your own life or your own functioning, I think it starts to make perfect sense. And time blindness is another example of something that I thought I sort of had but thought I had under control. And now in my new normal I have alarms and things all day notifying me and keeping me engaged. But they have been crafted and tried and tested over time. And so I think you have to find what works for you and be willing to try new things to achieve balance.

Richard Zwicky: It's really is a matter of trying different things to find the ones that work. I use the calendar in my phone to make a phone call, to remind myself to go and do XYZ, right? And it's not an alert. It's actually booked in my calendar with 15 minutes or 30 minutes or whatever I'm going to need because otherwise it doesn't happen.

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: I can totally relate to that. You have to know when you're going to do it or sometimes I underestimate how long a task might take. And that is something that as you work more and learn about yourself, you can better build in those blocks because you understand what your brain might do. That's a different perspective on the task or the amount of time.

Richard Zwicky: And do you think based on that we've reached a point where people aren't simply using technology for connection, but to regulate their emotional state? And what's the good and the bad of that?

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: I mean, I think people go on apps and the internet and technology to impact how they feel all the time in good and bad ways. And sometimes it's conscious and sometimes it's subconscious, So an example would be you hop on Instagram when you have a 15-minute break between meetings thinking you're going to watch some funny videos. And if you get some information about, international news or something that's maybe troubling, this 15-minute period that was supposed to be a break has totally changed the dynamic of your energy. And so as much as we seek out downtime or fun from these platforms, we do have to understand that unless you go into a platform that's strictly curated for something like, I don't know, a game, let's say, you are not going to necessarily control what happens on that platform in that limited amount of time. It's the algorithm. It's the day, it's all these other things that are impacting you. And so I think if we're using technology to try to achieve maybe calm or to learn something, it's good to really outline in our mind how we're going to engage. And I have a lot of platforms that help me relax. I use the calm app every night to do a meditation. If I need during the day, I sometimes will turn it on. So there is technology that can help us but there's also this awareness we need to have that we are giving our attention to a platform sometimes without controlling how that time is spent on the platform and social media is really the big one that is draining a lot of that but I don't want to say that it's all negative you can connect with other people

Richard Zwicky: It's not.

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: But something I'm curious your thoughts about and maybe we can talk a little more is I think there are so many pros, cons, and scary potentials when it comes to talking to AI and LLMs as a way to get information, but also a lot of people have been doing emotional bonding with these platforms. And I think it can have a benefit, but it's also been shown to create mania in people or create a false sense of your own place in the world. So, you need to be aware of what the dangers of some of these platforms are, especially when they're new.

Richard Zwicky: You do. And one of the challenges is when people go and they use a tool like, chat GPT or Clo or any of the other LLMs that are generic, they don't know They do build a profile of you over time that reflects the things you're searching for, looking for, but often, that's going to be mostly business or mostly personal and it may be around one aspect, but it's a sliver of who you are. And, that's why I've been building a platform separately, but it's all about putting in place the right guard rails. Who is this person?

00:20:00

Richard Zwicky: How do they operate? Because giving somebody a generic answer is going to do more damage than good. And if it's tuned to the individual and it can be properly managed around that, then it has incredible benefit because it can understand why are you asking a question about something and it's contextual. But today the systems aren't contextual. And that is one of the biggest challenges that's out there is people are turning to it. They're anthropomorphi make giving it a name as if it's a person or telling people to you, refer to it by the following name that people think they're now going to get confused. A person is responding to me because the answers are telling me what I want to hear. That's the danger that, exists. AI as a whole is incredibly useful tool that properly framed can benefit everybody. But abused, it helps nobody and it's only going to overstimulate and then become part of the cycle where we keep going back to it for answers we've already had want to hear differently. And I'm sure that comes up a lot for you and your calls and your show and your work and people have got level of confusion. How do you handle it? Right.

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: I mean, I really try to start with some basic knowledge on how it works. When I first started using LLMs, it was in the context of my job. And so we were educated on, the shortcomings, what some of the quirks that are built into this type of technology. And the thing that we always learned was the input is the most important. Whether that's, your advanced settings, the prompt of what question you're asking it, but you need to remember the context that it's operating off of as a standard and then the context that you're bringing to the prompt to the conversation. And so I try to help people understand how it's working so that they can understand the shortcomings and the holes. And one thing about AI that I think some people really forget is if you're not giving any preferences or settings, it is literally using the internet input from whatever period that it's been given. And so that is so broad and wide. And then it's also kind of supposed to follow your lead. So if you assume knowledge on a topic, it's going to likely believe and continue down this path with you and if you're not aware of that and don't know how to spot some of the blind spots of the responses, you can really get into a dangerous place. And so I tell everyone should update their settings from the very beginning to make sure that it's not overly inflating your ideas, your suggestions, your recommendations. And you also need to, if you're going to get into deep dialogues, actually ask some clarifying questions. I constantly say to AI, I think you're wrong about that and I don't know how you got there, but here's the way I'm looking at it. And sometimes we come to a middle ground, but a lot of the time it'll quickly say, you're right. I don't know why I got that wrong. And every time that happens, I feel less and less confident that the output is just perfect.

Richard Zwicky: You do.

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: And I think too many people when they use it, they like the first output and they're like, "This is great." And they believe everything it says. And I think when you're working with an LLM, you need to assume it's wrong and challenge it throughout the journey of your back and forth dialogue. Exactly.

Richard Zwicky: You do. And because it fills in the gaps. People talk about hallucinating, but hallucinating is basically just I don't know what to put in here, so I'm going to make something up. And then people take it as verbatim because they don't know otherwise. They're asking the question because they don't know, but they can't differentiate between the information as factual and not factual because it's not presented that way. It's just presented all as here's your answer. And that's a bit of a paradox because we're turning at these devices and these tools and these information sources because we're trying to optimize ourselves. We're trying to optimize the world around us. And it might be our sleep or our health or our relationships, any number of things, our performance at work. And yet the performance of op the pursuit of optimization really is a source of anxiety in itself. How are these systems actually creating a negative cycle?

00:25:00

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: I think the biggest thing is if you get to a place where you think you need all of these technologies to function day as a human, that's going to be a really hard place to come back from. So, I don't disagree that you can feed a lot of ingredients into AI and get great menu ideas for the week. I don't disagree that it could probably help coordinate your kids schedules really well and help you identify new ways to do things. But if we think the only way we're going to be efficient and effective is by using this technology, I think that's a huge human error in the long run. And I guess what I mean by that is as humans there are certain things we cannot optimize. So, for example, having a cup of coffee in the morning and allowing yourself to get your day started without being distracted by emails or messages, that's not something that you can change by having AI review everything for you. You still need to wake up in the morning and allow yourself that time to not even engage with technology in order to have this control over your life where you are asking for technology support when you need it. You're not letting it run and determine things for you. And I think the same is true with human connection. Technology can be great at helping foster connection, help you find people that you're on the same page about topics or experiences, but if we try to replace all of our human connection with technology we will not feel that full human experience that I think we're all looking for. And so I really encourage it is And that makes me feel like there's so much value and

Richard Zwicky: And isn't that the irony? We're looking for that human experience but turning to technology for it. And part of it is because 50% of people don't have a close friend they can turn to. They need something.

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: Benefit in technology providing that, but I don't ever want it to replace it. And I think that's what we need to be mindful of. AI can help us learn how to better talk to people or maybe give us ideas of a group or a support organization that we could go to, but it should never fully replace that human connection relationship. And I think if we seek that out, we are going to feel that emptiness in the long run because it will never replace what we need as humans when it comes to having other people, breathing air putting food in our body. Those are things that we need to do and technology cannot do those things for us. So we need to find the time and save the time to do it.

Richard Zwicky: And loneliness is documented to be one of the biggest problems we're facing right now as a society both, I speak with a lot of university administrators and they're struggling with that for the students and of course it turns to self harm. And with seniors, People become more isolated as they age if they haven't developed a good friend network and the families aren't around or anything else as that happens. While digital connection can help in terms of keeping us connected to communities of interest. There's also the challenge with our attention then becomes one of the most valuable commodities and do these tools change what we find interesting, who we value and how we then operate in the world.

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: I think they always create an echo chamber if you're not mindful. And that's the other great fear of these technologies. You can suddenly see your opinions, your thoughts, your point of view amplified and you can see things that you disagree with fall to the wayside if you allow them to. I think there's a lot of people that still curate all of their feeds and the news they get by wanting to know opposite sides, but there's a great risk when we're only interacting with technology to really curate information and believe that our perspective is the only and the right perspective. And so I think there's just immense value in leveraging these tools but having that dialogue as a society that we need each other and that if only what we're consuming is in agreement with us we've reached an area of I think identity segregation right if we're not aware of things that are either good in the world or problematic because they don't impact us directly we are too shut off. I think that we all live in physical spaces where there's people who probably agree or don't agree with us. And when we only seek those connections online, we run the risk of self-curating in a way that makes our reality the only reality.

00:30:00

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: And so I think it's really important on the tech side as well to try to reflect and represent different points of view and really trying to bring together the fact that having this perspective or this knowledge, it's good to know what else is out there and almost to I want to say to continue to evolve your point of view with the knowledge of other perspectives and tech can either really help us do that or create this siloed sense of understanding.

Richard Zwicky: So which self-awareness and the insights we can gain are invaluable and what required to allow us to grow and for whether we get those from the people around us or reflections which the tools can help with it's all growth. We are running low on time, but one question was niggling at the back of my head earlier was, you came out of Yelp, you came out of a technology company focused on grabbing everybody's attention and you moved into a role where you've really been trying to understand how your brain works and how other people's brains work. What's changed about how you consider success?

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: It's a great question. I think especially when I was in tech, I fell into the very common theme of success being equated to money and value and honestly stake in how things were being done. And I have since really learned that for me success now is about connection, authenticity, and storytelling in a way that educates. Because I did a lot of work educating in a way that created engagement, but it was all guided, I would be teaching small business owners what to do, how to be successful by walking them through the steps that we wanted them to take. And now I have much more of an approach of what matters to you. Whether you're an entrepreneur, you're an employee, whatever it is, I feel like true success is being your authentic Being able to bring your authentic self to work, whether that's speaking up in a meeting or sharing a point of view. And I think success is definitely understanding that we need money to live, but it's more about how can we create together in a way that helps others. And so I'm no longer creating to try to get a reaction or a response or a user. I'm creating to get someone to think differently about a perspective. And what I found in sharing my own mental health journey is by being vulnerable and honest about what I've gone through, people often share and sometimes share and tell me they've never shared with anyone else what they're about to tell me. And if I can focus more on elevating people's stories and giving them a place to be authentic and open about what they've experienced, that has far more value than how much money I get paid in a paycheck. And so I've really shifted my mindset to understand that I need to work to live in a sense, but then I'm really put here to connect with people, help them share their truth, and hopefully illuminate for other people a lifestyle or a way of living that they hadn't considered or maybe weren't aware existed.

Richard Zwicky: That's really good. So Emily, people want to learn more about the work you do listen to your podcast, so How can they find you?

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: Successorwrittenshow.com. That'll have all the information about the episodes as well as my personal work, how you can collaborate with me. And if you want to reach me, you can just email emily@successrewrittenshow.com. We're also on social media. You can find it under my name or successorwritten. And we're always looking for guests questions, people who have topic suggestions that we should cover. So don't be shy. We'd love to hear from any of your listeners.

Richard Zwicky: Wonderful. Thanks so much for joining us today on High on Healthy Emily.

Emily LoMenzo Washcovick: Thanks for having me. It was a really great chat.

Richard Zwicky: It was. And thanks to everybody for listening. I'm Richard Zwick and we'll be back again with you soon.