From Survival Mode to Thriving: Retraining Your Brain for Emotional Safety

Richard Zwicky: Hi everyone, it's Richard Zwicky with High on Healthy, the show where we know there's no one path to healthy, so we explore them one of the things that comes up a lot is the question as people are dealing with different mental health related challenges or issues or have family members around them who are struggling is can the brain learn safety again? And safety means a lot. And it's not just, being safe in your home or safe in anything else. It's actually safe in your own mind. And so many of us have dealt with issues through adverse childhood experiences which create concepts and issues around what does safety mean later in life. And joining us today for the discussion is Eileen Borski, who is a licensed professional counselor and ISUS microcurrent neuro feedback provider who specializes in helping people recover from anxiety, PTSD, and a whole variety of other issues including cognitive burnout. And the discussion is going to be not just about the brain but the brain is a thinking machine something that's happening consciously and unconsciously. And welcome aboard the show Eileen. Thanks for having me on the show.

Eileen Borski: Thanks for having me on the show. I'm excited to talk about these topics.

Richard Zwicky: I'm excited to talk about these topics.

Eileen Borski: Mental health treatment has changed so much in the last 20 years and

Richard Zwicky: Mental health treatment has changed so much in the last 20 years and

Eileen Borski: This is good to be able to get this information out to the people.

Richard Zwicky: This is good to be able to get this information out to the people. It is and we often overlook how much work our brain is doing. We cognitively think about the world around us and don't recognize that most of the work that the brain is doing is actually processing things we don't even think about. But most critically for mental health, processing fears, threats, what's dangerous, and subliminally and subconsciously telling us how to react. That aspect of safety often is out of whack, for want of a better term for people. What's one of the most unsettling realizations that many people think it's part of their personality or who they are, but really it's a chronically disregulated nervous system.

Eileen Borski: I mean people don't make the connection that their body is engaged when their thoughts are engaged.

Richard Zwicky: I mean, people don't u make the connection that their body is engaged when their thoughts are engaged.

Eileen Borski: So a lot of times they'll think the thought is

Richard Zwicky: So a lot of times they'll think the thought is

Eileen Borski: What is in charge and

Richard Zwicky: What is in charge and

Eileen Borski: In fact it's a response to

Richard Zwicky: In fact it's a response to

Eileen Borski: What happened in the body.

Richard Zwicky: What happened in the thought.

Eileen Borski: And so if we can create a sense of safety and

Richard Zwicky: And so if we can create a sense of safety and

Eileen Borski: I'll use the word calm in our body,

Richard Zwicky: I'll use the word calm in our body,

Eileen Borski: We can then have safety in our thoughts and

Richard Zwicky: We can then have safety in our thoughts and

Eileen Borski: Begin to live in the present as opposed to the past

Richard Zwicky: Begin to live in the present as opposed to the past

Eileen Borski: Those adverse childhood experiences and

Richard Zwicky: Those adverse childhood experiences and

Eileen Borski: Even intergenerational trauma occurs that somebody may even have knowledge of that still landed in their body.

Richard Zwicky: Even intergenerational trauma occurs that somebody may even have knowledge of that still landed to introduce that to someone is really mindblowing sometimes.

Eileen Borski: And to introduce that to someone is really mindblowing sometimes and I'm teaching them first that they're in charge of what's in their body and

Richard Zwicky: Teaching them first in charge of what's in their body and

Eileen Borski: In their thoughts.

Richard Zwicky: In their thoughts.

Eileen Borski: They didn't get delivered by FedEx or

Richard Zwicky: They didn't get delivered by FedEx or

Eileen Borski: The store.

Richard Zwicky: The store.

Eileen Borski: They're theirs.

Richard Zwicky: They're theirs.

Eileen Borski: I love that.

Richard Zwicky: They are And so they're so subconscious, so we have a hard time putting our finger on them because I just finished the first draft on a book which is I'm the only normal person in my universe. And thank you. And contextually you are the only normal person in your universe as well. And our challenge is to build the bridges. But when you're working with people who are dealing with anxiety or PTSD or any number of the other issues and chronic stress being one, what's striking to you about how many of the systems are overlapping and do we sometimes label people based on symptoms versus the underlying nervous state?

Eileen Borski: And sometimes the best approach is the holistic approach and

Richard Zwicky: And sometimes the best approach is the holistic approach and

Eileen Borski: That's new to a lot of people that I work with.

Richard Zwicky: That's new to a lot of people that I work with.

Eileen Borski: It's their whole body.

Richard Zwicky: It's their whole body.

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Eileen Borski: And it's not just what's happening in the thoughts or

Richard Zwicky: And it's not just what's happening in the thoughts or

Eileen Borski: The racing heart.

Richard Zwicky: The racing heart.

Eileen Borski: Those are flashing yellow lights,

Richard Zwicky: Those are flashing yellow lights,

Eileen Borski: But they're not the problem.

Richard Zwicky: But they're not. And So introducing them to the wellness model of the best care for the body,

Eileen Borski: Introducing them to the wellness model of the best care for the brain,

Richard Zwicky: And our nervous system.

Eileen Borski: Those all work together.

Richard Zwicky: Those all work together.

Eileen Borski: And so it's interesting to introduce that instead of just saying

Richard Zwicky: And so it's interesting to introduce that instead of just saying,

Eileen Borski: How do I fix the anxiety,

Richard Zwicky: "How do I fix the anxiety?" It's like,

Eileen Borski: It's like how do I fix my system?

Richard Zwicky: "How do I fix my system?

Eileen Borski: How do I create safety in my space?

Richard Zwicky: How do I create safety in my space?

Eileen Borski: How do I create calm in my nervous system?

Richard Zwicky: How do I create calm in my nervous system?" And all that ties to the holistic model.

Eileen Borski: And all of that ties to the holistic model. So yeah introducing that is the first place I start.

Richard Zwicky: Introducing that is the first place I start. And a lot of times we look at people and we see, they're incredibly ambitious or disciplined or they have this identity that people think they aspire to. But at what point are those really survival adaptations that get mistaken for something else? We are a species of survival,

Eileen Borski: We are a species of survival and

Richard Zwicky: Right? And when trauma happens,

Eileen Borski: When adverse childhood experiences happen,

Richard Zwicky: When adverse childhood experiences happen,

Eileen Borski: That is the place in the brain that's most active.

Richard Zwicky: That is the place in the brain that's most active.

Eileen Borski: And so we do have to retrain or

Richard Zwicky: And so we do have to retrain or

Eileen Borski: Disentrain the brain to stay in that state to be able to stop being in a survival mode

Richard Zwicky: Disentrain the brain to stay in that state to be able to stop being in a survival mode

Eileen Borski: But to be in thriving mode.

Richard Zwicky: But to be in thriving and

Eileen Borski: And thriving is the key.

Richard Zwicky: Thriving is the key.

Eileen Borski: And many times people want to focus on

Richard Zwicky: And many times people want to focus on

Eileen Borski: Why something happened. And that can be challenging.

Richard Zwicky: That can be challenging.

Eileen Borski: And so I like to introduce the concept of the other wh words.

Richard Zwicky: And so I like to introduce the concept of other wh words.

Eileen Borski: What can we do?

Richard Zwicky: What can we do?

Eileen Borski: Where can we do it?

Richard Zwicky: Where can we do it?

Eileen Borski: And when can we do it?

Richard Zwicky: And when can we do it so that we can create not a reactive state

Eileen Borski: So that we can create not a reactive state but a proactive state that's out of survival and

Richard Zwicky: But a proactive state that's out of survival and into thriving growth really.

Eileen Borski: Growth really. Yeah.

Richard Zwicky: And a lot of times people think they can think their way out of psychological and physiological regulation issues. And that their nervous system, you touched on the point about it's not necessarily always the event, but it's what comes afterwards. And I liken it to it's a scar that keeps festering and it's a wound that's in there and we can't see the wound so we don't know how to address it a broken arm. How do you think, and you mentioned it's sometimes not the event, it's the after effect. How do you help people frame that?

Eileen Borski: I try to get them out of their thinking brain.

Richard Zwicky: I try to get them out of their thinking brain.

Eileen Borski: What happens so when we have an event that's adverse whether it was in childhood or

Richard Zwicky: What happens so when we have an event that's adverse whether it was in childhood or

Eileen Borski: Adulthood when we hyperfocus on the thoughts of it we actually make it bigger.

Richard Zwicky: Adulthood when we hyperfocus on the thoughts of it we actually make it you think of the fish story somebody caught a fish and

Eileen Borski: You think of the fish story somebody caught a fish and when they first hold up their hands they say it's about 6 in long and

Richard Zwicky: When they first hold up their hands they say it's about six inches long right and

Eileen Borski: Then the next time they tell this story it's 12 in long or

Richard Zwicky: Then the next time they tell the story it's 12 in long or

Eileen Borski: Whatever and then it's a then it's a whale.

Richard Zwicky: Then it's a wave Okay.

Eileen Borski: And so that thinking brain really can perfect the rumination on it and

Richard Zwicky: And so that thinking brain really can perfect the rumination on it and

Eileen Borski: Develop the story to be bigger than it is.

Richard Zwicky: Develop the story to be bigger than it is right.

Eileen Borski: And so helping people understand that maybe their recall of it isn't exactly right can be troubling,

Richard Zwicky: And so helping people understand that maybe their recall of it isn't exactly right. It can be troubling,

Eileen Borski: Challenging, but once they get it,

Richard Zwicky: Challenging, but once they get it,

Eileen Borski: They get it and they can move past it.

Richard Zwicky: They get it and they can move past it.

Eileen Borski: And I have techniques to make it smaller than it is.

Richard Zwicky: And I have techniques to make it smaller than it is.

Eileen Borski: I use a lot of narrative therapy techniques to kind of take a whale and

Richard Zwicky: I use a lot of narrative therapy techniques to kind of take a whale and

Eileen Borski: Make it a goldfish again and

Richard Zwicky: Make it a goldfish right? And be able to

Eileen Borski: Be able to use that opportunity to help the nervous system develop better skills because it's not so big anymore. It doesn't have to be that the bear is running at us.

Richard Zwicky: It doesn't have to be that the bear is running at us.

Eileen Borski: It is that there's a cat in the corner and

Richard Zwicky: No, it doesn't. There's a cat in the corner.

Eileen Borski: We can handle the cat.

Richard Zwicky: You can and that's a really good analogy. And one thing that I know when I speak to people in general, they often and you reference EMDR, they misunderstand as simply talking about trauma, but it's really about helping the brain reprocess the unresolved experiences. What's actually happening neurologically during EMDR? Because that goes to changing that to a cat and the goldfish.

Eileen Borski: And so I like to explain it this way.

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Richard Zwicky: And so I like to explain it this way.

Eileen Borski: You have a partner or

Richard Zwicky: Say you have a partner seen a child sleeping and

Eileen Borski: You've seen a child sleeping and their eyes are closed

Richard Zwicky: Their eyes are closed.

Eileen Borski: But their eyeballs are going back and

Richard Zwicky: Their eyeballs are going back and

Eileen Borski: Forth. Okay? That's the brain processing the day.

Richard Zwicky: That's the brain processing the day.

Eileen Borski: When high stress events process that shuts down and

Richard Zwicky: When high stress events process that shuts down and

Eileen Borski: It's held in the part of the brain that developed when we were hunters and

Richard Zwicky: It's held in the part of the brain that developed when we were hunters and

Eileen Borski: Gatherers and we were afraid for our life all the time and

Richard Zwicky: Gatherers and we were afraid for our life all the time and

Eileen Borski: Fear dances with that part of the brain.

Richard Zwicky: Fear dances with that part of the brain.

Eileen Borski: And so with the adaptive information processing model,

Richard Zwicky: And so with the adaptive information processing model we are replicating those eye movements that would have happened in sleep and

Eileen Borski: We are replicating those eye movements that would have happened in sleep and we are relieving the disturbance that's attached to that and

Richard Zwicky: We are leaving the disturbance that's attached to that and

Eileen Borski: Reprocessing it into the part of the brain that can say that happened and

Richard Zwicky: Reprocessing it into the part of the brain they can say that happened and that was uncomfortable maybe even s\*\*\*\* right and

Eileen Borski: Maybe even s\*\*\*\*\* and it's not happening anymore.

Richard Zwicky: It's not happening anymore I'm an adult I don't live with my abusive father even

Eileen Borski: I'm an adult. I don't live with my abusive father. Even if he's part of my life,

Richard Zwicky: If he's part of my life I can walk away when I was seven I couldn't

Eileen Borski: I couldn't walk away. When I was seven, where could I go?

Richard Zwicky: Where could I go y and

Eileen Borski: And so beginning to put those things in the adult executive functioning part of the brain allows a more rational look at it and

Richard Zwicky: So Beginning to put those things in the adult executive functioning part of the brain allows a more rational look at it and

Eileen Borski: Not such an emotional look at it.

Richard Zwicky: Not such an emotional look at it.

Eileen Borski: And that just takes time.

Richard Zwicky: It does take time and that's one of the big struggles that people with attachment style issues have especially if you're an avoidant where or even if you're anxious where you have that fear of love conditional love is going to be withheld love I have to go work harder for it's not something which just can be trusted to be there people often unconsciously resist the calm that comes with be becoming secure. How do you help them overcome that? I stake the elephant in the room.

Eileen Borski: I stake the elephant in the room. I'll even say after I've built trust with a person for sure,

Richard Zwicky: I'll even say after I trust a person for sure first I'll say it feels like based on

Eileen Borski: First I'll say it feels like based on what you're telling me over and

Richard Zwicky: What you're telling me over and

Eileen Borski: Over again is you're the one leaning into and

Richard Zwicky: Over again is you're the one leaning into maybe even creating some of this chaos

Eileen Borski: Maybe even creating some of this chaos because it's a common feeling for you.

Richard Zwicky: Because it's a common feeling for you.

Eileen Borski: I don't want to use the word normal,

Richard Zwicky: I don't want to use the word normal,

Eileen Borski: But it is a common experience that you've had and

Richard Zwicky: But it is a common experience that we've had and

Eileen Borski: Our brains want to be in common experiences.

Richard Zwicky: Our brains want to be in common experiences.

Eileen Borski: And if I can help them see that,

Richard Zwicky: And if I can help them see that,

Eileen Borski: Then they can in their rational mind realize,

Richard Zwicky: Then they can in their rational mind realize,

Eileen Borski: That's not healthy for me.

Richard Zwicky: That's not healthy for me.

Eileen Borski: And then how do I change?

Richard Zwicky: And then how do I change?

Eileen Borski: And some of that is telling their story and

Richard Zwicky: And some of that is telling their story and

Eileen Borski: Not telling it too often

Richard Zwicky: Not telling it too often

Eileen Borski: Because that almost is rumination.

Richard Zwicky: Because that almost is rumination,

Eileen Borski: Why I've moved away from talk therapy to be able to help them realize in a shorter period of time we can reduce the disturbance of that experience whether that's through neuro feedback or

Richard Zwicky: Why I've moved away from talk therapy to be able to help them realize in a shorter period of time we can reduce the disturbance of that experience whether that's through neuro feedback or

Eileen Borski: A combination of both.

Richard Zwicky: A combination of both.

Eileen Borski: I like to think about your troubles in your treatment as a ruler that's 12 in long.

Richard Zwicky: I like to think about your troubles in your treatment as a rule that's 12 in long.

Eileen Borski: So talk therapy could take all of that 12 in that could be 12 sessions,

Richard Zwicky: So talk therapy take all of that 12 inches. That could be 12 sessions,

Eileen Borski: How much trouble a person had.

Richard Zwicky: How much trouble person had.

Eileen Borski: What I call neuro counseling,

Richard Zwicky: What I call neuro counseling,

Eileen Borski: You slide that down to the 3inch mark.

Richard Zwicky: You slide that down to the 3 inch mark.

Eileen Borski: I'm not going to say someone's going to get full relief in three sessions

Richard Zwicky: I'm not going to say someone's going to get full relief in three sessions

Eileen Borski: Because there's too much trust that has to be built.

Richard Zwicky: Because there's too much trust that has to be built,

Eileen Borski: I could see it.

Richard Zwicky: I can see it.

Eileen Borski: I could see it. I do it all the time with neuro feedback.

Richard Zwicky: I do it all the time with neuro feedback.

Eileen Borski: People that would have been in counseling for decades.

Richard Zwicky: People that would have been in counseling for decades,

Eileen Borski: Three, six months. Mhm.

Richard Zwicky: Every six months. Yeah, it can. I mean, when people are able to get over that barrier which is blocking them, the transformation can be incredibly rapid, but it's hard to get there and to face it. There's right because we're facing our deepest childhood fears that we're still living with today. And it's incredibly difficult, but also it's difficult because you touched upon something around chaos. Some become addicted to that stress hormone that comes around chaos. Why do how do you help them break that? Because that's not just cognitive, that's entire lifestyle. It applies to them at work, at home, and everything in between. Yes. So teaching neuro regulation,

Eileen Borski: So teaching neuro regulation neuro feedback,

Richard Zwicky: Neuro feedback, I'll use mindfulness,

Eileen Borski: I'll use mindfulness. Allowing them to experience a regulated nervous system state in the counseling setting can help them see that first off they can do it,

Richard Zwicky: Allowing them to experience a regulated nervous system state in the counseling setting can help them see that first off they can do it, They can sustain it.

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Eileen Borski: They can sustain it. They can do it over and

Richard Zwicky: They can do it over and

Eileen Borski: Introducing it to the system is key

Richard Zwicky: Introducing it to the system is key

Eileen Borski: Because here's the way I like to think about it.

Richard Zwicky: Because here's the way I like to think about it.

Eileen Borski: If one member of the family is argumentative

Richard Zwicky: If one member of the family is argumentative

Eileen Borski: Because they need that emotional hit,

Richard Zwicky: Because they need that emotional hit,

Eileen Borski: That hit of just the relief

Richard Zwicky: That hit of u just the release

Eileen Borski: Because they not taking medication for ADHD or

Richard Zwicky: Because they're not taking medication for ADHD or

Eileen Borski: Something and so they self-generate the relief they need and

Richard Zwicky: And so they selfgenerate the relief they need and

Eileen Borski: The system has worked around it.

Richard Zwicky: The system has worked around it.

Eileen Borski: They find a way to cope on their own.

Richard Zwicky: They find a way to cope on their own.

Eileen Borski: What happens when I help the person that came to me develop a regulated nervous system,

Richard Zwicky: What happens when I help the person that came to me develop a regulated nervous system,

Eileen Borski: The rest of the system doesn't know

Richard Zwicky: The rest of the system doesn't know

Eileen Borski: What to do with it.

Richard Zwicky: What to do with.

Eileen Borski: And so they're still poking the bear

Richard Zwicky: And so they're still poking the bear,

Eileen Borski: If that person blows up,

Richard Zwicky: If that person blows up,

Eileen Borski: They'll at least all get some relief for a little while. Okay.

Richard Zwicky: They'll at least all get some relief for a little while. Yeah. And some people do project that pain and that on everybody else to relieve themselves, which I know, my father used to do that all the time. And people do, and it's something you have to learn to overcome because you don't want to repeat that behavior. But, when people do grow up with instability and constant criticism and emotional unpredictability and you really don't know what healthy regulation feels like. How do you explain it to them and how do you help people understand that's what they actually should aspire to?

Eileen Borski: I introduce so a lot of times people at the end of my sessions will say I feel so calm when I'm here and

Richard Zwicky: I introduce. So, a lot of times people at the end of my sessions will say, "I feel so calm when I'm here." Right?

Eileen Borski: What was different in here than when you're nodding here.

Richard Zwicky: "What was different is here than when you're nodding."

Eileen Borski: It's your presence.

Richard Zwicky: It's your presence.

Eileen Borski: It's your voice.

Richard Zwicky: It's your voice.

Eileen Borski: It's the way you carry yourself.

Richard Zwicky: It's the way you carry yourself.

Eileen Borski: It's the things that you say.

Richard Zwicky: It's the things that you say.

Eileen Borski: Then I teach them once they've identified

Richard Zwicky: Then I teach them once they've identified

Eileen Borski: What it was that helped them be regulated in session.

Richard Zwicky: What it was that helped them be regulated in session. I teach those skills to we'll talk about voice modulation

Eileen Borski: I teach those skills to them. We'll talk about voice modulation. If that felt calming to you,

Richard Zwicky: If that felt calming to you. When you modulate your voice and

Eileen Borski: Modulate your voice and see if you can replicate the calm when you hear my voice in your own system.

Richard Zwicky: If you can replicate the calm when you hear my voice in your own system,

Eileen Borski: Imagine what your children will experience

Richard Zwicky: Imagine what your children will experience

Eileen Borski: If you speak to them in a modulated voice instead of an excited,

Richard Zwicky: If you speak to them in modulated instead of an excited heightened voice.

Eileen Borski: Heightened voice because the room will come to

Richard Zwicky: Right? Because the room will come to

Eileen Borski: What is being projected.

Richard Zwicky: What is being projected.

Eileen Borski: And you just have to keep doing that over and

Richard Zwicky: And you just have to keep doing that over and

Eileen Borski: Over again. And I give them the space to know that they're learning.

Richard Zwicky: Over again. And I give them the space to know that they're learning.

Eileen Borski: They haven't mastered this.

Richard Zwicky: They haven't mastered this.

Eileen Borski: And so ask for a doover.

Richard Zwicky: And so ask for a doover.

Eileen Borski: If your voice starts to go up,

Richard Zwicky: If your voice starts to go up,

Eileen Borski: Say, "I don't want to be doing that.

Richard Zwicky: Say, "I don't want to be doing that.

Eileen Borski: That's not going to help our conversation." Give me a second.

Richard Zwicky: That's not going to help our conversation. Give me a second.

Eileen Borski: I'm going to say that over again.

Richard Zwicky: I'm going to say that over again." give them permission to be a new person

Eileen Borski: Give them permission to be a new person because a lot of times they feel like it is their personality and

Richard Zwicky: Because a lot of times they feel like it is their personality and

Eileen Borski: They can't change it.

Richard Zwicky: We can't change it.

Eileen Borski: And I think I try to lean it back when you were a kid,

Richard Zwicky: And I think I try to lean it back when you're a kid,

Eileen Borski: When you were four or five, people telling stories of you so joyfully riding your bike or

Richard Zwicky: Five, people telling stories of you so joyfully riding your bike or

Eileen Borski: Being outside with your friends.

Richard Zwicky: Being outside with their friends,

Eileen Borski: That's the real you.

Richard Zwicky: That's the real you.

Eileen Borski: And that little person is inside of you and

Richard Zwicky: And that little person is inside of you and

Eileen Borski: Has something to say to you.

Richard Zwicky: Has something to say to you.

Eileen Borski: And listen to that.

Richard Zwicky: And listen to that.

Eileen Borski: I help them introduce themselves to all their parts.

Richard Zwicky: I help them introduce themselves to all their parts. The protector part.

Eileen Borski: They all exist. And when they have a voice,

Richard Zwicky: When they have a voice,

Eileen Borski: Their internal system can work so much better.

Richard Zwicky: Their internal system can work so much better.

Eileen Borski: And most people at first when I start talking like that,

Richard Zwicky: And most people But first, when I start talking like that,

Eileen Borski: I don't have multiple personalities.

Richard Zwicky: I don't have multiple personalities.

Eileen Borski: I'm like, no. But have you ever felt like a little kid when someone yelled at you?

Richard Zwicky: I'm like, no. But have you ever felt like a little kid when someone yelled at me often like a kid when that my boss yelled at me?

Eileen Borski: I feel like a kid when that my boss yelled at me. That's that little kid part that got yelled at by mom or

Richard Zwicky: That's that little kid part that got yelled at by mom or

Eileen Borski: Grandma.

Richard Zwicky: Grandpa or grandma.

Eileen Borski: Still trying to protect him or

Richard Zwicky: Still trying to protect him or

Eileen Borski: It has something it wants to say.

Richard Zwicky: It has something it wants to say.

Eileen Borski: It needs to say, "I need to be safe here.

Richard Zwicky: It needs to say, "I need to be safe here.

Eileen Borski: How can you help me?" And

Richard Zwicky: How can you help me?" and that brings up though when somebody falls in love, true love, real love, pure love, they get that emotional safety, that feeling when they're with their partner. And yet for some that's the scariest thing ever, which is why some flee it. I mean, especially, going back on avoidance, they flee it. That goes back to the trauma, but how do you help people actually recognize it for what it's for? And what are the other physiological benefits when they sit and embrace it?

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Eileen Borski: That is a big question

Richard Zwicky: That is a big question

Eileen Borski: Because so many people I work with don't feel.

Richard Zwicky: Because so many people I work with don't feed it,

Eileen Borski: They have cut off their thoughts from their body.

Richard Zwicky: They have cut off their thoughts from their body.

Eileen Borski: But I want to go back to what you said.

Richard Zwicky: But I want to go back to

Eileen Borski: When they get into these relationships,

Richard Zwicky: What you said when they get into these relationships,

Eileen Borski: They're have emotional safety.

Richard Zwicky: They're have emotional safety.

Eileen Borski: I would say it's a little different.

Richard Zwicky: I would say a little different.

Eileen Borski: They're not getting emotional safety.

Richard Zwicky: They're not getting emotional safety.

Eileen Borski: They're hoping for emotional safety.

Richard Zwicky: They're hoping for emotional safety.

Eileen Borski: A lot of times in relationships before someone is healed now after they've worked through some of their issues they can find emotional safety

Richard Zwicky: A lot of times in relationships before someone is healed now after they've walked through some of their issues, they do find emotional safety,

Eileen Borski: But in the beginning they're almost looking to heal the relationship that hurt them.

Richard Zwicky: But in the beginning they're almost looking to heal the relationship that hurt them.

Eileen Borski: And so they're not actually getting emotional safety.

Richard Zwicky: And so they're not actually getting emotional safety.

Eileen Borski: They're many times getting a replica of the problem and

Richard Zwicky: They're many times getting a replica of the problem,

Eileen Borski: They're continually trying to fix it.

Richard Zwicky: And they're continually trying to fix it.

Eileen Borski: Fix it. If I could just do one more thing with this person or

Richard Zwicky: Fix it. If I could just one more thing with this person.

Eileen Borski: Help this person understand.

Richard Zwicky: Help this person understand and

Eileen Borski: And that's all outside of their control.

Richard Zwicky: That's all outside of their control.

Eileen Borski: All they can do is fix themselves and

Richard Zwicky: All they can do is fix themselves.

Eileen Borski: Search for healthy relationships to support growth.

Richard Zwicky: And search for healthy relationships to support growth.

Eileen Borski: We're not fixing anyone.

Richard Zwicky: We're not fixing anyone.

Eileen Borski: Everyone has to fix themselves. Now, they can have a helpmate,

Richard Zwicky: Everyone has to fix themselves. Now, they can have a helpmate or a wise friend or

Eileen Borski: Or even a wise partner if they're willing to go on the journey,

Richard Zwicky: Even a wise partner if they're willing to go on the journey.

Eileen Borski: But we can't fix anybody.

Richard Zwicky: But we can't fix anybody.

Eileen Borski: They have to have Yes.

Richard Zwicky: No, we can't fix anybody. That's absolutely correct. But we can learn to embrace the right feeling of safety there's more and what hap when you actually allow that feeling of safety you allow it to embrace what happens physiologically beyond just the reality of you've reached emotional safety but it changes a lot in your body at that moment.

Eileen Borski: Tone the nervous system.

Richard Zwicky: What happens? Yeah. Tone the nervous system and

Eileen Borski: And it's just like exercise.

Richard Zwicky: It's just like exercise.

Eileen Borski: The first time you do sit-ups,

Richard Zwicky: The first time you do situps,

Eileen Borski: If you haven't done them ever or

Richard Zwicky: If you haven't done them ever or

Eileen Borski: It's been a long time,

Richard Zwicky: It's been a long time,

Eileen Borski: It's going to hurt. So, I introduced the concept that

Richard Zwicky: So, I introduced the concept that

Eileen Borski: If we're doing neuro feedback and

Richard Zwicky: If we're doing neuro feedback and

Eileen Borski: EMDR, there's a possibility that you could get more disregulated than you were before.

Richard Zwicky: EMGR, there's a possibility that you could get more disregulated than you were before.

Eileen Borski: So, lean into that. Allow it. Let's talk about it.

Richard Zwicky: Allow it, let's talk about it

Eileen Borski: Because what I've seen over and

Richard Zwicky: Because I've seen over and

Eileen Borski: Over again is on the other side of that increased d disregulation is a toned nervous system and

Richard Zwicky: Over again on the other side of that increased dis dysregulation is a toned nervous system. And

Eileen Borski: I teach them in session

Richard Zwicky: I teach them in session

Eileen Borski: What it feels like to be regulated after a neuro feedback session with breakdown

Richard Zwicky: What it feels like to be regulated. After a neuro feedback session we break down how did that feel?

Eileen Borski: What did you experience I felt really calm yeah and

Richard Zwicky: What did you experience? I felt really calm. Right. Yeah.

Eileen Borski: That's only going to last for a little while so you can feel calm

Richard Zwicky: And that's only going to last for a little while.

Eileen Borski: But what I'm hearing from you is that you can feel calm

Richard Zwicky: But what I'm hearing from you is that you can feel You just told me I didn't put those words in there.

Eileen Borski: You just told me I didn't put those words in your mouth. Those came from you.

Richard Zwicky: Those came from me.

Eileen Borski: I feel really calm right now.

Richard Zwicky: I feel really calm right now.

Eileen Borski: Notice that.

Richard Zwicky: Notice that.

Eileen Borski: Feel it.

Richard Zwicky: Feel it.

Eileen Borski: Negative, neutral?

Richard Zwicky: Negative, neutral?

Eileen Borski: Some people will say it's negative in the beginning

Richard Zwicky: Some people will say it's negative in the beginning

Eileen Borski: Because it's so different than

Richard Zwicky: Because it's so different than

Eileen Borski: What they felt.

Richard Zwicky: What they felt.

Eileen Borski: And we do it over and

Richard Zwicky: And we do it over and

Eileen Borski: Over again.

Richard Zwicky: Over again.

Eileen Borski: And then the length of it extends.

Richard Zwicky: And then the length of it extends.

Eileen Borski: They feel more comfortable in it.

Richard Zwicky: They feel more comfortable.

Eileen Borski: And that's not to say that some people still go into flight.

Richard Zwicky: And that's not to that some people still go into flight.

Eileen Borski: Like I would say 97% of the clients that I work with embrace it,

Richard Zwicky: Like I would say 97% of the clients that I work with embrace,

Eileen Borski: But 3 they felt that calm and

Richard Zwicky: But 3 they felt that calm and

Eileen Borski: They just bolt.

Richard Zwicky: They just bolt, they may come back three or

Eileen Borski: They may come back three or four times and then they say, "This isn't doing anything for me.

Richard Zwicky: Then this isn't doing anything for me.

Eileen Borski: This isn't even me.

Richard Zwicky: This isn't even me.

Eileen Borski: I don't even like this person."

Richard Zwicky: I don't even like this person.

Eileen Borski: Because they still want the chaos.

Richard Zwicky: Because they still want the chaos.

Eileen Borski: They like the energy of it.

Richard Zwicky: They like the hormonal shifts that give them the energy,

Eileen Borski: They like the hormonal shifts that give them the energy, even if it's negative energy,

Richard Zwicky: Even if it's negative energy

Eileen Borski: Because they're just not ready yet,

Richard Zwicky: Because they're just not ready to experience calm.

Eileen Borski: To experience calm.

Richard Zwicky: And that's a sad state for a lot of people when they're not ready because they're closing themselves off from parts of themselves at the same time. And there's no right answer for the right moment. But it's like everything else. You can't succeed And you have to try and try and try again until you get it right. And that's my way of having approached it and what I got through my own things. But when we look at the world today, the data shows that half the people don't have a close friend they can turn and talk to. And usually before people turn to therapy, they turn to friends, they turn to family, they start talking about what's going on.

00:25:00

Richard Zwicky: And more and more, for that 50% who don't have the close person to speak to, they're turning to They're checking themselves against it and trying to ask the questions and validate their own judgment. AI gives people responses with extreme confidence. How do you deal with that? Because they come to you afterwards and say things about what they learned, but they learned from a machine which doesn't know them or understand them. I actually asked that question in my intake now I have for the last six months.

Eileen Borski: I actually asked that question in my intake now I have for the last six months what have you engaged AI for your mental health so that we can have that conversation and

Richard Zwicky: What have you engaged AI for your mental health so that we can have that conversation and

Eileen Borski: I like to take both approach.

Richard Zwicky: I like to take a bothand approach people aren't going to stop doing that and

Eileen Borski: People aren't going to stop doing that. So I just say,

Richard Zwicky: So I just say first off

Eileen Borski: First off, what did it say?

Richard Zwicky: What did it say?

Eileen Borski: And what was that beneficial and

Richard Zwicky: What and was that beneficial and

Eileen Borski: How did you incorporate it into your life?

Richard Zwicky: How did you incorporate it into your life times it was beneficial and

Eileen Borski: And a lot of times it was beneficial and they did incorporate it into their lives.

Richard Zwicky: They did incorporate into their lives but the big stuff the trauma it's not going to touch that

Eileen Borski: The trauma, it's not going to touch that because it's not going to be able to teach them

Richard Zwicky: Because it's not going to be able to teach them

Eileen Borski: How to accept the current state of their nervous system and

Richard Zwicky: How to accept the current state of their nervous system and

Eileen Borski: How to accept this new state of their nervous system once they start to heal.

Richard Zwicky: How to accept this new state of their nervous system once they start to heal.

Eileen Borski: And so the human connection is huge.

Richard Zwicky: And so the human connection is huge.

Eileen Borski: The other thing I share with them when they're in session with me,

Richard Zwicky: The other thing I share with them when they're in session with me,

Eileen Borski: What I'm noticing in them to help them understand the human connection is real.

Richard Zwicky: What I'm noticing in them to help them understand the human connection is real.

Eileen Borski: I'll state the difference in the energy in the room.

Richard Zwicky: I'll state the difference in the energy in the room and

Eileen Borski: And I'll say, "Am I on point,

Richard Zwicky: I'll say, "Am I on point,

Eileen Borski: Off point, what?" And most of the time I'm on point.

Richard Zwicky: Off point, what?" And most of the time I'm on point.

Eileen Borski: And I'll say "So, was it helpful for me to state

Richard Zwicky: And I'll say "So, was it helpful for me to state

Eileen Borski: What I felt like I was experiencing from you?"

Richard Zwicky: What I felt like I was experiencing from you?" And they're like,

Eileen Borski: And they're like, "Yes, I feel like you heard me." I said,

Richard Zwicky: "Yes, I feel like you heard me." I

Eileen Borski: ' that's not something you're going to get from AI.

Richard Zwicky: That's not something you're going to get from AI." Yeah.

Eileen Borski: I'm not saying don't use the tool.

Richard Zwicky: I'm not saying don't use the tool. I believe in AI, but I believe you have to build guard rails in the system to give it proper parameters. And when you sit down and just type in your query, it doesn't happen. It doesn't know to build it off out of scratch because it doesn't understand the true context and I do tons of work in that area. But we are running low on time and one of the things that struck me from a comment you made earlier is of course the brain can learn fear and it learns fear through traumatic events. Is it harder to learn safety again or is it easier as one gets older? H that's an interesting question.

Eileen Borski: That's an interesting question. What I'll say it depends on the person.

Richard Zwicky: What I'll say it depends on the person.

Eileen Borski: Sometimes it can get harder as we get older

Richard Zwicky: Sometimes it can get harder as we get older

Eileen Borski: Because we have really worked the muscle of building chaos in younger people they haven't spent so much time perfecting chaos

Richard Zwicky: Because we have really worked the muscle of building chaos, In younger people spent so much time perfecting chaos,

Eileen Borski: If I can use that language.

Richard Zwicky: If I can use that language.

Eileen Borski: So in younger people I see very quick recovery and

Richard Zwicky: So in younger people I see very recovery and

Eileen Borski: About half the people that are older adults I see quick recovery when we use these neurobased things

Richard Zwicky: About half the people that are older adults I see quick recovery when uses neurobased things

Eileen Borski: Because they're ready to change.

Richard Zwicky: Because they're ready to change.

Eileen Borski: The other path I'm see it takes a little bit longer

Richard Zwicky: The other half I see it takes a little bit longer

Eileen Borski: Because maybe someone in their life told them

Richard Zwicky: Because maybe someone in their life told them

Eileen Borski: If you don't go get help from a counselor our marriage is over.

Richard Zwicky: If you don't go get help from a counselor our marriage is so they're not even ready to change.

Eileen Borski: So they're not even ready to change. So it's the readiness,

Richard Zwicky: So it's the readiness it's the state of the bra and

Eileen Borski: It's the state of the brain in its overall development and the state of the nervous system and

Richard Zwicky: The state of the nervous system in the body and

Eileen Borski: The body in its overall development.

Richard Zwicky: Its overall development.

Eileen Borski: If someone spent 50 years cutting off every emotion and

Richard Zwicky: If someone spent 50 years cutting off every emotion and

Eileen Borski: It's going to take a little while to turn that back on. Yeah.

Richard Zwicky: It's going to take a little while to turn that back on. No, it absolutely does. And so, Eileen, people who want to learn more about your practice the work you do and the process, how can they learn more?

Eileen Borski: No, certainly go to my website authenticbrainsolutions.com.

Richard Zwicky: Certainly go to my website authenticbrainsolutions.com.

Eileen Borski: I have a YouTube channel,

Richard Zwicky: I have a YouTube channel and

Eileen Borski: And I've written for different magazines and

Richard Zwicky: I've written for different magazines and

Eileen Borski: In different media.

Richard Zwicky: In different media.

Eileen Borski: So, I'm out there Borski,

Richard Zwicky: So, I'm out licensed in Texas.

Eileen Borski: Authentic Brain Solutions. I'm licensed in Texas. I do in person in Conro,

Richard Zwicky: I do in person in Conro,

Eileen Borski: I do all over the state in Texas at virtual and

Richard Zwicky: I do all of the state in Texas at virtual and

00:30:00

Eileen Borski: I'm licensed in New Hampshire and Florida.

Richard Zwicky: And Florida.

Eileen Borski: So, anybody in those places that wants to do virtual or

Richard Zwicky: So, anybody in those places that wants to do virtual or

Eileen Borski: If they're located close by in the greater Houston area,

Richard Zwicky: If they're located close by in the greater in person,

Eileen Borski: They can do in person, which is required for the neuro feedback.

Richard Zwicky: Which is required for the neuro feedback,

Eileen Borski: But I do EMDR in all of those states all the time,

Richard Zwicky: But I do EMDR in all of those states all the time,

Eileen Borski: Every day.

Richard Zwicky: Every day. Fantastic. Thanks for joining us today on High on Healthy, Eileene.

Eileen Borski: All righty.

Richard Zwicky: All righty.

Eileen Borski: It was nice to meet you and

Richard Zwicky: It was nice to meet you and

Eileen Borski: I look forward to seeing more good things come out of your podcast.

Richard Zwicky: I look forward to seeing more good things come out of your podcast. Thank Have a wonderful day and thanks to everybody for listening. I'm Richard Wiki with High on Healthy and we'll be back again with you soon.